K-lite fertilizer

[Rick]

Very good point...... So are you trying your program on other alliances?

The whole collection. Have a bit of everything.

http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21848&highlight=Dendrobium

Here's a thread I started on a new Dendro. superbiens I just got this spring. Note before and after leaf color of the new growth.

Apparently this is an Aussie native. When I googled around on this species I found wild pics of this plant over 6 feet tall!

You might enjoy the search function. I use it lots to see what I might have missed from individual members or what's been said for different species or topics.

 

[Stone]

There is a common belief or assumption that raising the Phosphorous level will induce flowering. Whether it is true or not the fertilizer industry has established that concept. So it is easy to make the assumption that once a plant is in flower you don't need the high P level any longer as the plant supposedly is entering another phase of growth. So they put on the label "Do not apply during flowering".

Now why would they really want to make people think this?
Simple answer.... Marketing.
Stop using the high Phosphorous bag of fertilizer and go buy a different formula to use while the plant is in bloom. That way they have sold you twice as much product as you actually need.

Very true Lance, The use of high P is a hangover from when potted plants were grown in soil. A lot of the P became tied up in the clay colloids and became unavailable so they had to poor it on to get results. This doesn't happen in organic media.

 

[Stone]

I have not seen any wild plants in person but pics that I have seen aren't the greatest growing plants....

If you can, you should try to get yourself a copy of Aust. Orchid Review Feb 2011. It has a pic of Paph. hennisianum in the Philippenes. You couldn't dream of a better specimen. It has 7 flowers open and one bud. All leaves perfect, all blooms perfect Growing in what looks like very deep leaf litter and a few ferns. Thats how All my paphs will look one day
I think the reason so many habitat plants look so poor is just bad luck (stomped on, eaten, thrashed by storms etc) not because of a want of nutrients. Although this also depends on where their seeds decide to germinate.

Mike.

 

[gonewild]

Rick have you tried fertilizing with only....

Calcium Nitrate + Mag Sulfate + micros

Assuming the plants may get all the P and K needed from the media?

 

[Rick]

Rick have you tried fertilizing with only....

Calcium Nitrate + Mag Sulfate + micros

Assuming the plants may get all the P and K needed from the media?

I've been thinking about this for a winter option, but haven't made the plunge so far. I did shred a bunch of leaves from my front yard (plus sand and perlite). Mostly oak, and I live over shallow karst. There are a few native orchids in the area including Cyp pubescens. I potted up a few callosum, suk', and lowii seedlings, and plan on just dilute well water to see what happens. Are you going to try anything special? I'm getting maxed out on ideas and programs!

I have a micro solution at work for our algae cultures, but just thinking about it, I probably have a handful of the micro species in my well water anyway at very low levels. At least iron, manganese, and silicates. Copper is fairly common at micro doses too.

Actually the whole algae culture solution is a 5 part thing we make from scratch, which includes everything we've been talking about, so the above suggestion is Parts 1, 4, and 5. (part 2 is K phosphate, and part 3 is sodium bicarb). The micro solution (part 1) is a bugger to make! We make up new batches every 6 months whether or not we run out, so maybe I'll scam some left overs.

 

[Cochlopetalum]

I would like to thank you Rick. I find this threads totaly fascinating. I had a lot of diffuse problems with my plants, both Paphs and Hoya plants. Things like intervenal chlorosis, pale borders of the leaves, weak flower stalks and a lot's of mite's. The problems have been some what diffuse and most off my forgiving Cochlos are flowering and growing well. I just miss that realy healty look and I had problems with saving struggling plants ( I bought). Many of the cochlos I buy, have problems with there rots and i struggle to get them back to healt. I tried different fertilisers the last 7 years, trying to find the one kind that works. The only thing that realy made any differens was when I added bonemeal as a toppdress. Now I blame most of my problems on excessive K.

 

[Rick]

Rick have you tried fertilizing with only....

Calcium Nitrate + Mag Sulfate + micros

Assuming the plants may get all the P and K needed from the media?

What I did do (a few times but nothing I'd consider a trial), was to take 1/4 tsp of EPSOMA peletized lime and disolve it in a gallon of water.

Since I did this in RO water and checked pH and hardness, It will give you soft water at a neutral pH. It doesn't completely dissolve and leaves a little sand like residue (probably good as a lime top dress). This will give you Ca and Mg boost, but no nitrogen aid, which I think is pretty important to give.

 

[keithrs]

So as far as K ppm's.... What would you recommend?

Did you notice any benefits in disease control with the lime?

 

[keithrs]

I wonder if a low k diet would change how we do winter rest?

 

[likespaphs]

I wonder if a low k diet would change how we do winter rest?

did you just call me fat?
:rollhappy:

 

[Rick]

did you just call me fat?
:rollhappy:

Only if you spell carbs' with a K Brianoke:oke:

I think I need more pie!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Is that P supplementation

 

[Rick]

So as far as K ppm's.... What would you recommend?

Did you notice any benefits in disease control with the lime?

I haven't come up with an absolute minimum yet, but I think less than 5ppm would be fine for frequent use.

That would be about 1/20th the going rate of MSU 12_6_13. Right now I'm probably at 20-25 ppm.

Several of us have seen decreases in the frequency and virulence of Erwinia infections. One of the papers I've been promoting demonstrate that (in beans or other garden crops) that resistance to disease (both Erwinia and Botrytus) goes up considerably as the K concentration in leaf tissue goes down and the Ca concentration goes up.

 

[cnycharles]

this all sounds very good. others have reminded that certain commercial fertilizer preps that many of us use or have used, are for pot plants/flowers that will be grown on to small size and shipped out somewhere. usually these plants need to be kept compact, and one thing I remember a consultant we had with a previous owner had stated was that controlling some nutrient conditions could help keep plants shorter, without using as many growth regulators. it could be that the potassium is upped in these formulations to help try to 'control' growth by the things rick has been describing. this would indicate that if we want our plants to not have this negative growth situation then we should limit k for our orchids (unless we want to keep them short and compact)

 

[Rick]

I wonder if a low k diet would change how we do winter rest?

I think winter rest is different for everyone, and the need varies for so many different species.

My concept is a general decrease in all water and temps rather than just a slow down of feeding while keeping watering at a set rate.

There are a few things (like the handful of Dendrobiums and some deciduous terrestrial species) in my collection that I would say really get a big drop in watering. I do a general decrease in feeding too, and tend to tie it more to the decrease in sunny days that happens during TN winters. But I haven't really finalized a summer diet and a winter diet quite yet.

 

[Rick]

this all sounds very good. others have reminded that certain commercial fertilizer preps that many of us use or have used, are for pot plants/flowers that will be grown on to small size and shipped out somewhere. usually these plants need to be kept compact, and one thing I remember a consultant we had with a previous owner had stated was that controlling some nutrient conditions could help keep plants shorter, without using as many growth regulators. it could be that the potassium is upped in these formulations to help try to 'control' growth by the things rick has been describing. this would indicate that if we want our plants to not have this negative growth situation then we should limit k for our orchids (unless we want to keep them short and compact)

Not sure if high K has been used as foliage growth regulator rather than just something that can get plants to fruiting/flowering faster at the expense of foliage growth. Going by the "follow the $$concept" most fertilizers / feeding strategy has been developed for the sake of food crops. This area of agri/hort gets the lion share of research$, and the most prevalent focus is to get the most edible component in the shortest amount of time with the least waste. Everyone else (the flower market) just goes for the ride and adapts to the handmedowns from the food production boys (MSU as a result). But since plants are plants, 80% of what works for food crops will work for everyone else (especially with adaptations).

 

[cnycharles]

what we use for wholesale plant production has been designed for floral and not food production

* edit - I have to correct that they aren't used for outdoor farm food production, but I do remember from the labels that they can/are used for hydroponic irrigation which does include food production, though I believe many more flowers are produced with the fertilizer than lettuce leaves

 

[Rick]

what we use for wholesale plant production has been designed for floral and not food production

How much different is it from any of the 1000 "standard" formulas developed for corn in the 1950's?

 

[cnycharles]

look through a fertilizer catalog, there are dozens and dozens of different things listed. to say one is the same as other is funny. as stated before, many are just styled and marketed without need of plant. most of the things we use are either geared recently for stable solutions for seedlings, or for poinsettias etc often styled to be the same as or like greencare ferts designed for the specifications of certain cutting and seedling growers who sell to wholesale markets. they aren't corn fertilizer

 

[Rick]

look through a fertilizer catalog, there are dozens and dozens of different things listed. to say one is the same as other is funny. as stated before, many are just styled and marketed without need of plant. most of the things we use are either geared recently for stable solutions for seedlings, or for poinsettias etc often styled to be the same as or like greencare ferts designed for the specifications of certain cutting and seedling growers who sell to wholesale markets. they aren't corn fertilizer

http://www.carrtracks.com/fertlzr.htm

Which reinforces Growilds position, that if you can't make enough money selling fertilizer for crops, you start inventing "novel" fertilizer schemes and packaging to justify extra $$$ for all the niche markets.

There really is no single fert for corn either. It's all just NPK you talk to an ag extension person and say "I want to grow ABC". He dials in your soil and water quality and tells you how much NPK you need. How you get there is up to you. You can build your own N,P,K from individual components or find an off the shelf blend from one of the catalogs. It may turn out that the ultimate fert for corn in Farmer Johns field in SW Iowa may turn out to be the new hot fert for GH Poinsettias.

But is Farmer John now relying on the cutting edge research of the poinsettia industry? No he's still using all the research done on food crops going back to the late 1800's. I would even say that if it wasn't for all the $$ plowed into understanding food crops, the flower folks wouldn't even have a building to set up a lab in the first place.

 

[gonewild]

Are you going to try anything special? I'm getting maxed out on ideas and programs!

I can't right now as I have sold off most of my plants in preparation to move back to Peru. Once there I will.

I have a micro solution at work for our algae cultures, but just thinking about it, I probably have a handful of the micro species in my well water anyway at very low levels. At least iron, manganese, and silicates. Copper is fairly common at micro doses too.

Actually the whole algae culture solution is a 5 part thing we make from scratch, which includes everything we've been talking about, so the above suggestion is Parts 1, 4, and 5. (part 2 is K phosphate, and part 3 is sodium bicarb). The micro solution (part 1) is a bugger to make! We make up new batches every 6 months whether or not we run out, so maybe I'll scam some left overs.

I have used this mix in my aquarium. Plantex CSM+ Boron
I think it might be a source for adding micros to a dry fertilizer mix. I don't know how well the ratios are but don't think it should cause any issues. (@Rick, I have some of this left I would be happy to send you if you want to try it.)

Maybe just using Calcium Nitrate for all the nitrogen and calcium with MagSulfate and micros in a liquid mix. Find a simi-soluable source for potassium and phosphorous that will release only tiny amounts over a long time. This could be either mixed in the media or top dressed. But along the lines of this idea to lower the amount of K maybe there already is enough from the media anyway.

Years ago when we grew commercially we would at times not have enough money to buy a load of fertilizer components. (We made our own liquid mixes and bought components by the ton). There was a period of time when we ran out of potassium nitrate and phos acid (both were very expensive) so I just used Calcium Nitrate, Mag sulfate, Iron, and micros. Actually everything grew very well and it made me wonder why we needed to use the expensive K and P. At the time I was very young and when we had some money in the bank went back to using all the "good" stuff. Now that you are seeing good results from the low or no potassium I think you are on to something and if I had plants now I would follow your ideas and go for the concept. When I get back to Peru I want to take some soil water samples from the "media of wild orchids and test to see what the K and P levels are.

Just need to find some components that are simple to work with.