K-lite fertilizer

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I'm almost sold on the low K diet, Rick.... I grow mostly Catt. and Plueuro. alliance plants with only a few Phrags and two Paph(so far). I think I'll wait for spring to come around before I go full bore into low K diet. I definitely enjoy reading your(and others) post on the subject and all others for that matter.....

It's my understanding that MSU did do leaf analysts when they devised there fertilizer? If so, How could they be so wrong on the K?

Hi Keithrs. Rick is no doubt asleep and dreaming of wooden baskets or some such at the moment but I think I remember that he mentioned looking at some data on tropical forests having tree foliage K levels much lower than in temperate areas. Also that Ca was as high or higher than K? due to the fact that they grow on K-poor limestone derived soils.
Also I'm wondering about P. delenatii growing on granitic soils which are high in K. I think, therefore shouldn't this species enjoy a more ''normal'' K level?
 
Does it say you "can't" use it while plants are in flower? Or does it recommend that you don't?


Dilute at 10 mL per litre and cover leaf surface. Do not apply during flowering.

The message relates only to foliar fertilisation. I think OzPaph is fertilising through the potting mix so it wouldn't relate to him.

David
 
yes, I watering can the plants, not the flowers.

The difference is that in foliar fertilisation, the concentration of fertiliser is much higher plus the plant can absorb the fertiliser much more efficiently and faster. I assume this may burn the flowers. I wonder if this may affect the buds as well?

David
 
Some points:

- Plants can extract more of a specific ion than the ratio supplied. So if you supply K at half the quantity of Ca, the plant still can take two times more K than Ca. Chromium is another extreme example, plants can really become intoxicated quickly, and it is irreversible. They will take whatever they can find under the soluble form for chromium.

- Rick point, and thinking about it it matches some things I got in the past..., is that some plants cannot stop taking K from their environment, up to a detrimental level. Especially if Ca and Mg are deficient.

- Orchids have different foliar analysis than most ornamental crops, for most popular genera.

- So Rick idea was to lower the availability of K at the plant roots so they do not get intoxicated, and raise the Ca and Mg, which are divalent cations ( K is a monovalent cation).

- I think that soluble or insoluble has not much matter for most plants, as long as the insoluble compound is in contact with the root or the active root tip. Qutie a few plants are able to dissolve compounds at their roots, would be very long to explain, but that's a fact.

- Phytotoxicity symptoms charts are useless for orchids. I learned it the hard way, some 'nonmobile' compounds can move, and some mobile compounds will not move. Zinc is not supposed to move too much, but it can be translocated from the old leaves to the new ones, giving... potassium deficiency symptoms. It happened to me in the early days, and thinking of it, when I gave potassium nitrate to the plants, they were screwed at light speed. Iron is supposedly used in the new growths, but it can move to the old leaves, and make phytotoxicity symptoms in the old leaves, whilst still be deficient in the new leaves. It is very complicated, and requires many analysis. Orchids are slow growing, unlike rice or lettuces, so they can move, slowly but surely, things from the old parts to the new ones, or the opposite. Which ions they can move and which they can't remain a mystery until today...

- As for the fertilizers, they are made basically of a few chemical salts, packaged differently and that's all. Some organic fertilizers or special fertilizers can incorporate kelp, citric acid, others additives to enhance the solubility or availability of the macros and micros, or supply directly available food to the plants ( such as amino acids).

- The 'not to mix with calcium nitrate' recommendations or that style apply to professional growers who use a dosatron or similar. They mix the fertilizer in very concentrate form ( something like 1kg/10L for some nurseries) and a pump dilutes it. If you make your final fertilizer, providing the compounds are dissolved properly, you can add pretty much everything together in the final tank. This said, you better use it VERY quickly. I know as a fact too from tank analysis that calcium nitrate and Peters 20-20-20 end up in insoluble calcium and very low levels of phosphorus after a couple of days. If you mix and apply immediately, there should be a minimal loss ( especially depending on the pH. At the old 5.7 standard, there is little risk, but if you use ProTekt to raise the pH to let's say 6.5, you will have a precipitate, maybe invisible, but it will be there. Same if you tank mix calcium nitrate and a NPK fertilizer, the raise the pH. A part will become insoluble molecules, at molecular level, so there is little chance of seeing those by the naked eye)

- To raise the phosphate content, I would not use potassium phosphate ( there are 3 different ones BTW...). I use always MAP, monoammonium phosphate. In fact my use of 10-52-10 is similar to the use of MAP with a bit of potassium nitrate and oligos.

- Many people got very good results with the MSU, because at the same N concentration ( let's say 100ppm), MSU supplies way higher rates of micronutrients than a commercial standard, old style fertilizer. So when using MSU, it helped to supply the micronutrients at a proper level, whilst not overdosing the NPK... After, that's another story. I could never maintain plants with MSU alone, and they did very poorly. It is related to their all nitrate policy. Rick uses kelp, I use ammonium phosphate straight, and sometimes things like peptone, and we do not have any problems with way different setups. In both cases, we add ammonium or ammonia to the system, eventually amino acids.




- Rick should really investigate the Asian pots for orchids. In Asia, they have black plastic pots with a net at the bottom like that:

premium-round-plastic-mesh-bottom-pots.jpg


My main concern against using baskets is when it will be time to repot. Most likely there will be broken roots, etc... and a plastic pot like that would help to maintain high aeration, but with the roots inside the pot...

Overall, for the hydroponics companies ( we have many dealing in cannabis growers as well in Europe), they have some very fine product. However I would never use them, because

* First I do not know what's inside. As an example, Jerry's Grow was wonderful, but when it went out of stock, it started to be a major mess for people who used it for years. The methanol enhanced the penetrations of some ions, and changed the plant metabolism. As long as the plants were fed that way, all was fine. When it was stopped, plants could go down very quickly. Another example in Europe, some of those hydro products contains hormons, some rare compounds that are indeed enhancing plant growth for some specific crops, like spermidin, triacontanol, etc... Some plants like it, some will definitely have a very adverse reaction. In some cases it can doom the plants.

* Second I don't know if it is going to be available for long or not, or if they will 'improve' the formulation at a later point, which requires retesting, and maybe worse results for our orchids.

and when you stop using them, the plants cannot make it properly.
 
It's my understanding that MSU did do leaf analysts when they devised there fertilizer? If so, How could they be so wrong on the K?

It's a matter of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. The action of making an observation changes the nature of the observation being made.

MSU wasn't designed on the basis of leaf tissue composition of wild plants sampled in the field but on GH propagated plants (good looking ones) already feeding on present commercial foods. I believe the leaf tissue data base was also based on hybrid phales too (but that could be a poor recollection). But I found a similar study conducted by a university in Belgium on "optimization" of fertilizer for commercial phale propagation that came out pretty much the same as MSU.

The presumption was that if it looks good in the GH then what must be going into (and retained) by the plant is ideal.

As Roth has pointed out (verified by my searches) there is very limited and fragmentary leaf tissue data on wild orchids. The data he has presented is considerably different from the MSU data. This is why I went to the generic leaf litter data for rain forests, and nutrient flux studies on rainforests. Even then it gets fragmentary. One person only studies NPK, a different one NP Ca/Mg, another one P_Ca_Mg...... Finding studies that covered the whole mess in one shot were like finding diamonds in a coal mine.

But then once you get a handful of concurrence you find that "plants is plants" +/- 20%. Which means just about all plants are pretty much the same physiology wise (as homo sapiens are all pretty much the same in physiology), but with subtle tolerances and specialties.

So then I went back to the general agriculture literature (follow the $$$$) which is where all the true plant physiology research happens, and you start getting the idea of how/why ferts are used and for what purposes.
 
Hi Keithrs. Rick is no doubt asleep and dreaming of wooden baskets or some such at the moment but I think I remember that he mentioned looking at some data on tropical forests having tree foliage K levels much lower than in temperate areas. Also that Ca was as high or higher than K? due to the fact that they grow on K-poor limestone derived soils.
Also I'm wondering about P. delenatii growing on granitic soils which are high in K. I think, therefore shouldn't this species enjoy a more ''normal'' K level?

Kind of:

The leaf litter data I was able to find (multiple papers) did cover other soil types besides karst limestone. One paper on ultramorphic serpentine (a high Mg, low Ca, lower K system) as well as some data on granitic. Pretty much all the same with Ca generally higher than K, and Mg usually ~ equal to K. Because this was leaf litter data its homogenized for multiple tree and epiphyte species. The paper on the serpentine did break down individual composition for about 20+ tree species (which came out about the same to their dismay). You'll note in Roth's previous post the point I've been making that plants (especially orchids) are able to selectively accumulate nutrients at levels higher than background. The serpentine paper (from Puerto Rico forests) demonstrated that despite the low background Ca, plants were cycling up higher Ca ratios than Mg even though Mg was more prevalent in the geology.

Rothschildianum, hookerae, dayanum, are paphs found in association with serpentine geology in Borneo. In the days I believed that all the premise of MSU were correct, I never considered the importance of Ca to these species, and my long term results were poor (although short term seemed good). Now using a high Ca low K system for the above species that have survived my old ways are showing greatly improved growth and quality.

Anyway getting back to granite and delenatii (gratrixianum too for that matter). Bioavailability of K in granitic soils is poor, just like the availability of silica is from sand. The limited leaf litter data over granitic systems doesn't show appreciably different from that over limestone. Both delenatii and gratrixianum are in my collection, and both have improved dramatically since I started questioning the need for improving Ca/Mg.
 
- Rick should really investigate the Asian pots for orchids. In Asia, they have black plastic pots with a net at the bottom like that:


My main concern against using baskets is when it will be time to repot. Most likely there will be broken roots, etc... and a plastic pot like that would help to maintain high aeration, but with the roots inside the pot...

I do have a few pots like these Xavier. I also have a TON of the Rand's style aircone pots. In a few cases I am getting better growth in the baskets than even aircone pots. I even drilled more holes into a few of them and still baskets are better (keeping media type the same). However I am experimenting with a few plants going back to a bark or CHC mix in pots now going to a low K fertilizer system, and getting some good results so far too.

It's kind of interesting that roth, stonei, gigantifolium, and sanderianum went to basket culture very well, while supardii and kolopakingii took to it a little more grudgingly (but now finally seem to have the hang of it). I think they are a bit more seasonal on when they want to put out roots, or more sensitive to disturbance in general.

With the wood baskets, my strategy is not to "repot" until the basket is so rotted the plant is falling out. And at that time I will just dump the mess into a larger basket (removing what debris comes out easy) and go on from there. This is kind of what I do now for Bulbos and other things that I have used wood baskets (doesn't work for plastic!) for many years.
 
Chemical composition

A worldwide average of the chemical composition of granite, by weight percent:[5]
The Stawamus Chief is a granite monolith in British Columbia

SiO2 — 72.04% (silica)
Al2O3 — 14.42% (alumina)
K2O — 4.12%
Na2O — 3.69%
CaO — 1.82%
FeO — 1.68%
Fe2O3 — 1.22%
MgO — 0.71%
TiO2 — 0.30%
P2O5 — 0.12%
MnO — 0.05%

Based on 2485 analyses

Got this out of Wikipedia.

The amount of K in granite rock is very low. Mostly just silica. Now if you find high Feldspar granite that will have a higher K composition (but still not very available to plants). In general the granitic soils are low pH and general even lower in nutrients than soils over limestone.

In some ways this tracks general stream productivity for aquatic systems in karst regions compared to granitic regions.

http://www.cheshireconservation.org/Services/Soil

Here's an extension link explaining why New Hampshire's granitic soils are nutrient impoverished compared to Vermonts soils on metamorphic rock.
 
How could they be so wrong on the K?

Partially because its not 100% wrong. In fact if you have an adult plant in fresh mix and other access to Ca and Mg, and if you only water during the AM, and don't fertilize in the winter, and use pesticides and fungicides, and cut flower spikes on single growth plants....... you can get good results. At least for the first few years. At this point if it fails to grow or die we always come up with a zillion excuses other than nutrition.

It's kind of like feeding cows corn instead of grass. Yes they grow faster and fatter, but they are more susceptible to disease and damage, and you are going to eat them at the end of 2 years.

I also looked at K consumption usage recommendations from the K industry itself.

They will also tell you the amount of K needed (based on biomass per unit area) for annual crops is orders of magnitude higher than for perennial fruit and nut crops. I also looked at the recommendations for pecan growers for the State of Georgia county extension service which indicates no K supplementation at all.
 
So could it be that K levels have build up so high in the plants that have been using MSU or high K for years and now there going to low K fertilizer and seeing improvement because the plants are using the excess K and bringing them down to levels manageable but the plant...... Plus the huge boost in Ca and Mg to support the function of photosynthesis.....

Kinda like an slightly overweight person that decides there not pretty/handsome enough and go on a diet and exercise to get rid of the excess energy stored in the there body. As soon as the person starts exercising, They feel great.... There using all that excess energy because there taking in less then what there body needs. There eating what the dietitian whats them to eat....No more, No less.... There felling like there pretty/handsome.... Everything is handy dandy.... Than one day someone realize that the dietitian was way under nourishing the person to levels that effect there health..... They still fell ok but there health is starting to suffer... Then one day they start that fast down hill decline.

May main concern is what happens years from now? Is this what happening?!?... Time well tell...

I have not seen any wild plants in person but pics that I have seen aren't the greatest growing plants.... Is that what we what to strive for? I would think that you could feed a bit more then what is in the wild.... Maybe not to the levels that MSU is at K wise. I would think that 3-6 K would be fine if you had the right amount of Ca/Mg and other micro and macro elements, light and other environmental elements to support proper function of the plants metabolism.
 
It's a matter of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. The action of making an observation changes the nature of the observation being made.

MSU wasn't designed on the basis of leaf tissue composition of wild plants sampled in the field but on GH propagated plants (good looking ones) already feeding on present commercial foods. I believe the leaf tissue data base was also based on hybrid phales too (but that could be a poor recollection). But I found a similar study conducted by a university in Belgium on "optimization" of fertilizer for commercial phale propagation that came out pretty much the same as MSU.

The presumption was that if it looks good in the GH then what must be going into (and retained) by the plant is ideal.

And MSU was designed with commercial production in mind and not necessarily long term plant health. The ideal goal of MSU fertilizer is to grow a plant as fast as possible into an attractive plant that can be sold...after that MSU's job is done.
 
Dilute at 10 mL per litre and cover leaf surface. Do not apply during flowering.

The message relates only to foliar fertilisation. I think OzPaph is fertilising through the potting mix so it wouldn't relate to him.

David

There is a common belief or assumption that raising the Phosphorous level will induce flowering. Whether it is true or not the fertilizer industry has established that concept. So it is easy to make the assumption that once a plant is in flower you don't need the high P level any longer as the plant supposedly is entering another phase of growth. So they put on the label "Do not apply during flowering".

Now why would they really want to make people think this?
Simple answer.... Marketing.
Stop using the high Phosphorous bag of fertilizer and go buy a different formula to use while the plant is in bloom. That way they have sold you twice as much product as you actually need.
 
How could they be so wrong on the K?

If you look at these two plants you would think they are right.



My hirsutissimum and exul I've been growing since 2001/2002. However since since I started Ca/Mg supplementing a couple years ago the individual plants are 20% bigger with much better color and leaf substance. I also have no more erwinia problems with the exul.

But they didn't get it right for these seedling hirsutisimum (out of flask 01/2010):
This is the second flask of these I've worked with and already 5X bigger than the last ones ever got before they all crapped out over 3 year time period.


Or these :
 
So could it be that K levels have build up so high in the plants that have been using MSU or high K for years and now there going to low K fertilizer and seeing improvement because the plants are using the excess K and bringing them down to levels manageable but the plant...... Plus the huge boost in Ca and Mg to support the function of photosynthesis.....

If all you work with is adult plants you may get that impression, but I'm also comparing results with seedlings that are fully involved in the program.



I have not seen any wild plants in person but pics that I have seen aren't the greatest growing plants.... Is that what we what to strive for? I would think that you could feed a bit more then what is in the wild.... Maybe not to the levels that MSU is at K wise. I would think that 3-6 K would be fine if you had the right amount of Ca/Mg and other micro and macro elements, light and other environmental elements to support proper function of the plants metabolism.

Need to look at a lot more pics. I've seen plenty posted on this site that make our GH plants put to shame. Of the top some monster Phrag besseae and then some pics of giant randsii (a species most can't even keep alive).

I get both Orchids Mag and Orchid Digest. Lots of insitu pics (Cattleyas used as hedgerow's!) in the tropics. Besides a couple leaf nibbles I don't think there is a shortage of plants doing OK in the rainforests (as long as they aren't getting mowed down for timber or palm oil plantations).
 
It's kind of funny on the resistance I see to this issue.

I put my brain to this topic in response to the shortcomings and outright failures realized in my own and others programs. Not to the successes.

I'm not trying to changes anyone's mind that is perfectly satisfied with the results they are getting with their program, but offering an alternative solution to the frequent and recurring problems many of us (including myself) seem to have.

Also after growing for 10 years and experiencing the same problems as everyone else and really get no solutions or no results from the same old solutions that its time for something radical (going back to nature:eek:)

What's that old expression about doing the same thing over and over but expecting a different outcome??
 
Kinda like an slightly overweight person that decides there not pretty/handsome enough and go on a diet and exercise to get rid of the excess energy stored in the there body. As soon as the person starts exercising, They feel great.... There using all that excess energy because there taking in less then what there body needs. There eating what the dietitian whats them to eat....No more, No less.... There felling like there pretty/handsome.... Everything is handy dandy.... Than one day someone realize that the dietitian was way under nourishing the person to levels that effect there health..... They still fell ok but there health is starting to suffer... Then one day they start that fast down hill decline.

Never seen anything on the health benefits of obesity to support this.
I've also not heard of malnourished people who "feel OK" but are in declining health. I've also never heard of a credible dietician who has prescribed anyone into starvation.
 
Rick, I'm trying to discredit your findings or your thoughts.... I hope thats not the way your taking it.... I do believe your on to something though question have to be asked on something thats 180 from the norm. There is little to support this concept. Being fairly new to orchids (2-3 years) I have lots to learn and experience. I posed those questions to see what yours and other thoughts where... not for you think I was resisting what you have found.

I was using the analogy for hypothetical reasoning...... My half-sister went from 170 down to 89 pound in 6 months..... though she did not die..... she did suffer heart problems.... She saids that she felt better at 89 then at 170 even though she started have heart and stomach problems .... The point being that one will not tell you exactly how they feel intel problems arise.
 
If all you work with is adult plants you may get that impression, but I'm also comparing results with seedlings that are fully involved in the program.

Very good point...... So are you trying your program on other alliances?

Need to look at a lot more pics. I've seen plenty posted on this site that make our GH plants put to shame. Of the top some monster Phrag besseae and then some pics of giant randsii (a species most can't even keep alive).

Your right!!!!! There some great videos of besseas in here natural habit on you tube done by the folks at Ecuagenra.
 
Rick, I'm trying to discredit your findings or your thoughts.... I hope thats not the way your taking it.... I do believe your on to something though question have to be asked on something thats 180 from the norm.

No I didn't think so or take it that way from either you or anyone else Keithrs, but I am surprised on how much defense I'm seeing for a system that produces so many complaints.

I think it is a human nature thing to look at each problem as unrelated/disconnected from a bigger picture, and to treat for symptoms rather than causes.

Here's another one that will blow your mind! Persistent mealy/scale bug issues are another symptom of high K fertilizing.

K is primarily used for the production of starches / sugars in plants. A lot of the Ca (that high K blocks) goes into cell wall thickening making leaves tougher and thicker. K (and sugars) are generally found in higher concentrations in roots and flowers. In food crops K is highest in roots, tubers, fruits and seeds.

Sucking bugs are really going for the carbs. So as you allow the plant to get big and soft and sweet, you make the plant more conducive and nutritious for pests. Tougher happier bugs are tougher to eradicate and take more and more effort and chemicals to control.

I'm seeing less and less mealies, and requiring less and less bug spray as leaves get bigger and harder. Most mealie action now is on big flower sprays and the old leaves of my Catts.

My Phrag pearcii were both mealie magnets and poster children for leaf tip burn. Leaf tip burn is almost nonexistent now, and mealies are getting sparse.
 
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