hangianum and emersonii

[Stone]

Mike I think you should revisit your thread on crack/crevice dwellers before going into organic media.

Organic media?
I was refering to the discussion on mirco nutrient ratios for orchids in general not specifically for these two.
Differences are very small but sometimes very small changes can make a big difference in plant response. There is no question that the range of micronutrients found in organic material is way more than the manufactured stuff we use and possibly more importantly, available to the plants in configurations which they have become evolved to deal with.

The use of Seaweed product alone often has seen great improvement in growth by many people and I believe not just from the active compounds but also from the availability of some of the rare minerals. However they are extremely dilute in seaweed extracts.

There is a passage in an old bonsai book I have which mentions that after WW2, all the growers in Japan went exclusively to moderen manufactured fertilizers for their plants only to return one by one back to rapeseed etc as the colour and quality of the trees was not as good with the new ferts.
We do not have all the anwers and experimenting can be valuable.
I think reducing overall concentrations is a good start but not the complete picture.

 

[Stone]

Thanks for the rapeseed info, Mike. Do you compost/ferment it? Without it, I guess most of the minerals aren't accessible, right?

Yes it must be mieralized by bacterial action before it becomes available.
I mix the 2 (or more) ingredients together dry then add water to form a ''firm slop''. It is then dried in trays and scored to form small squares. As it dries it begins to ferment and partly break down. When dry it is very hard and you snap off the square and use either whole (which begins to take effect after 2 weeks and last about 6), or crushed or as an inffusion ( which you must let sit for 1 month before you cna use it). I 100% certainly would not use anything else on my mature trees after having tried everything over the years. Standard ''chemical ferts'' tend to produce leaves which are too big and of a poorer colour.

 

[Rick]

I think there's something more recent This article (which I have) is the March 2005 issue. It's ok and covers much of what's already in the book, and some work he published on a pine tree in the limestone regions. Maybe a few better pics of the habitat and insitu emersonii pics than in the book. I pretty sure there's something more recent in either Orchids or OD.

I don't have access to this, but does it have some interesting info?
http://kbd.kew.org/kbd/detailedresult.do?id=367319
If you have an access, I'd like to take a look at it.

Is this what you are talking about, Rick? Or are you looking at his book?

Thanks for the rapeseed info, Mike. Do you compost/ferment it? Without it, I guess most of the minerals aren't accessible, right?

I'll check to see if that's a good reference to Orchids

It was fairly recent.

I also have his book.

 

[Leo Schordje]

For what it is worth, I started my bonsai on K-Lite. I also located the Controlled release 4 month coated pellet version of K-Lite. I have been very pleased with the performance. I'm into year 2 with the K-Lite on the bonsai. The first year was rough, as I discovered I was under-fertilizing. This year my Japanese Black Pines finally put out the growth I was hoping for after significantly upping my dose rates. Color of my needles is great. My Japanese White pines are a beautiful blue-green, they used to be more yellow green. So all in all, K-Lite seems to be a great all round fertilizer. Rick, I think you hit a home run with this. Key for the trees was they really are heavy feeders.

With the high boron in Paph malipoense wild collected leaves. Is this observed result an indication of what the plant needs for optimum growth or is this an indication of the species ability to tolerate high environmental presence of this toxic at high doses for most plants? It this a tolerance that allows malipoense to exploit a habitat, there by reduced competition. In the USA the borax salt flats are almost devoid of vegetation due to toxic concentrations of boron. So are leaf contents indications of nutritional needs or adaptation to hostile environments? I don't know the answers. I do know K-Lite, 2 year into usage seems to be an improvement over the generally good results I was getting from the MSU formulations.

 

[Leo Schordje]

I find Paph emersonii and hangianum to be "no problems really" type plants. Some of my Paph emersonii clones I have been growing for over 20 years. My only complaint is that they are both slow growing species. Emersonii in particular is very slow. My plants that are 20 years in my care have bloomed maybe 3 or 4 times in that period, neither bloomed until they were more than 3 growths, which took over 10 years for me to get them up to that size. Of course my culture changed significantly over that period of time, especially my fertilizer programs. My first blooms came when I moved to Dyna-Grow, then more frequent blooms came when MSU was started. I have had one bloom since starting K-Lite, and I expect the other soon, so emersonii seems to be responding favorably, but it certainly is a slow growing species for me. I assume in the wild it grows quicker than what I am experiencing, so I am continuing to look for improvements I can make. But I will take slow with few problems over a fast growing disease prone plant any day.

Hangianum is relatively new for me so I don't have a lot to say about it, though it seems easy enough and grows much quicker than emersonii in my conditions.

 

[Linus_Cello]

What is the controlled release 4 month coated pellet version of K-Lite? Where did you get it? Can you post a web link to a vendor?

 

[Happypaphy7]

Yes it must be mieralized by bacterial action before it becomes available.
I mix the 2 (or more) ingredients together dry then add water to form a ''firm slop''. It is then dried in trays and scored to form small squares. As it dries it begins to ferment and partly break down. When dry it is very hard and you snap off the square and use either whole (which begins to take effect after 2 weeks and last about 6), or crushed or as an inffusion ( which you must let sit for 1 month before you cna use it). I 100% certainly would not use anything else on my mature trees after having tried everything over the years. Standard ''chemical ferts'' tend to produce leaves which are too big and of a poorer colour.

I used to have it as a kid, but on my non-orchid plants. didn't grow orchids then.

They do not not become fermented when they go dry as fresh.
You want to use rapeseed shell or sesame seed shell (I used sesame seed shells, the leftovers after oil has been extracted from them, they were common and free of charge from places where they extract oils, which were basically everywhere because everyone uses sesame seed oil for foods in the Far East) and place them in a container with water, seal the container and place the whole thing in a warm area for fermentation. I don't remember how long it takes, but you can tell it's done by the smell of it. not that pleasant. lol
Only then, you can use it safely on the plants.

You drain out the liquid, which will be almost black, then mix the remains with bone meal to the right consistency enough to make small balls.
Dry the balls ( mainly for storage as dry forms last longer, and smells less aweful) and use one per pot. One per month is about correct, but I remember using only twice per year, mainly during growth season.
Once in the spring, and then later in season. That's it.
Plants do grow well with this.

 

[Trithor]

Very interesting thread!

 

[Stone]

I used to have it as a kid, but on my non-orchid plants. didn't grow orchids then.

They do not not become fermented when they go dry as fresh.
You want to use rapeseed shell or sesame seed shell (I used sesame seed shells, the leftovers after oil has been extracted from them, they were common and free of charge from places where they extract oils, which were basically everywhere because everyone uses sesame seed oil for foods in the Far East) and place them in a container with water, seal the container and place the whole thing in a warm area for fermentation. I don't remember how long it takes, but you can tell it's done by the smell of it. not that pleasant. lol
Only then, you can use it safely on the plants.



You drain out the liquid, which will be almost black, then mix the remains with bone meal to the right consistency enough to make small balls.
Dry the balls ( mainly for storage as dry forms last longer, and smells less aweful) and use one per pot. One per month is about correct, but I remember using only twice per year, mainly during growth season.
Once in the spring, and then later in season. That's it.
Plants do grow well with this.

This is Tanaka's way: http://www.orchid.or.jp/orchid/people/tanaka/fertize/enfertilizer.html
Similar to how I do it but he forms the cakes after fermentation.

 

[Leo Schordje]

Thanks Mike for the link to Tanaka's page.

Fertilizer cakes are a standard method frequently used by the bonsai people. Often affectionately referred to as "poo balls". I have yet to "make friends" with using them. I find they create their own set of problems. When the cakes break down the sediment is fine grained, which will eventually block the air spaces in the media for both my bonsai and my orchids. Often in a shorter period of time than my preferred repotting schedule. I don't want to repot my older pines more than once every 4 or 5 years. It only takes maybe 2 seasons for poo balls to clog up the air voids in my mix, water doesn't drain, and then I have to be very cautious with watering to avoid rotting roots.

Fertilizer cake is interesting, on bonsai, if placed on a tree with a healthy mycorrhizal colony, you will see in the early morning when the air is humid the cake enveloped by mycelium, the mycorhiza feeding on the cake. This is good. When placed on a tree or an orchid that does not have a well developed mycorrhiza colony, sometimes you end up feeding a "not so helpful" fungi, maybe not necessarily pathogenic, but I have had snow mold go nuts in orchid bark when I put "poo balls" on my Cymbidiums. Though I must admit, I think the snow mold was there first, which is never good, though it is not "pathogenic" until it has taken over the pot. The take over can happen quickly.

Some of the "old timers" here may remember when using horse manure for a fertilizer was being promoted. Manure in general is a time honored fertilizer, and it can work very well. Chicken, bird manure in general, goats, sheep, horses, cows, llama, camel, all manner of dung from herbivorous creatures make good plant fertilizer.

(Note: dung from carnivores has health issues presenting a risk to people, don't use dog poop without first reading up on the proper preparation, I don't know the details, I have no dog right now).

I have several Paph philippinense that were raised by their previous owner on cow manure. They were big beefy plants with roots filling one gallon nursery cans - roughly a deep 6 inch diameter by 10 to 12 inches deep pot (15 cm diameter & 20 or 25 cm deep). The previous owner had good results until he began neglecting the watering. So all in all the organic fertilizers have a long, time honored history of working, but you do have to adapt your style of growing in order to use them. Frequent repotting is key, you can't let an orchid go 2 years if you are using dung. (well maybe, Cymbidiums seemed to be able to grow in muck, he used to not repot the Cymbidiums, as the media would collapse, turn to fines and wash out the drain hole, he would just refill the pot with manure, kept this going a decade or more. The Cymbidiums looked great, until he started letting them get bone dry between watering. Then they all crashed.

So I stick to K-Lite, cleaner, easy to use, does not plug up drainage.

 

[Leo Schordje]

To get the pelleted 4 Month Controlled Release version of K-Lite, with the same wonderful line up of macro and micro nutrients, contact Ray at First Rays Orchids. If he doesn't have it in stock, ask him to order it in. Ray is a member here. It is the Controlled Release 9-1-1 formulation made by the same wholesale manufacturer that Ray has blend the K-Lite. It should be a couple bucks per pound more than the soluble K-Lite, but not much more than a couple bucks more.

 

[Linus_Cello]

To get the pelleted 4 Month Controlled Release version of K-Lite, with the same wonderful line up of macro and micro nutrients, contact Ray at First Rays Orchids. If he doesn't have it in stock, ask him to order it in. Ray is a member here. It is the Controlled Release 9-1-1 formulation made by the same wholesale manufacturer that Ray has blend the K-Lite. It should be a couple bucks per pound more than the soluble K-Lite, but not much more than a couple bucks more.

Ray- I would buy some if you made it available for sale.

 

[Stone]

When the cakes break down the sediment is fine grained, which will eventually block the air spaces in the media for both my bonsai and my orchids.

.

That's why I use these:
http://www.ebay.com/sch/sis.html?_n...apan 44 Pices Large Size&_itemId=290968962018

When placed on a tree or an orchid that does not have a well developed mycorrhiza colony, sometimes you end up feeding a "not so helpful" fungi, maybe not necessarily pathogenic, but I have had snow mold go nuts in orchid bark when I put "poo balls" on my Cymbidiums. Though I must admit, I think the snow mold was there first, which is never good, though it is not "pathogenic" until it has taken over the pot. The take over can happen quickly.

I use them on all my trees and have no problem with snow mold. They do have molds on them which is the first wave of decomposers (attacking the sugars etc). It then disipates and the bacteria take over. Some bonsai growers in Japan get very excited when they see mold on there fert cakes!

Some of the "old timers" here may remember when using horse manure for a fertilizer was being promoted. Manure in general is a time honored fertilizer, and it can work very well. Chicken, bird manure in general, goats, sheep, horses, cows, llama, camel, all manner of dung from herbivorous creatures make good plant fertilizer.

I would not use these as their analysis is difficult to predict, they are to course and they may harbour all kinds of pests/ diseases.

So I stick to K-Lite, cleaner, easy to use, does not plug up drainage.

You're not still with the low K thing are you? Have you not seen enough evidence yet? :evil:

 

[myxodex]

In this country mancozeb often comes mixed with sulphur. Is it the sulphur??

Dithane/mancozeb are dithiocarbamate type compounds which do contain sulphur. In moisture and light they will decompose to release H2S (amongst other compounds) which can be absorbed by plant leaves and assimilated.

I've been interested in the results folk here have reported using this treatment (see some of Bjorn's recent threads). There is a connection between the S biochemistry in plants and the transition metal micros (Fe,Mn,Zn,Cu and Ni), their uptake, transport and binding into the metalloproteins that use these metals. All these metals can generate reactive oxygen species (ROS) if not properly complexed/chelated when in the plants (phytochelatins are S containing compounds found in all plants), and all of these metals can be toxic in excess. Studies have shown for some plants that are challenged with excess Fe (e.g. wheat) , will respond by increasing S uptake at the roots. I can only guess that applying extra Mn,Zn and/or Cu without the extra S, could actually harm your plants especially if your fert regime is S limited.

 

[naoki]

myxodex, it is pretty interesting points. If it is not too much trouble, can you point to the papers (Fe challenge and S uptake)? This isn't a science forum, but some of us appreciate the primary literature!

There seem to be quite a bit of difference in attitudes toward Organic vs inorganic fertilizer in different country. I think in Japan, we used to consider organic ones are the typical fertilizer for hobbyists (both orchids and other plants). I believe that people in Brazil also use quite a bit of organic fert.

After reading Rodrigues et al (2010) (organic+inorganic was better), I tried to make fermented cake with cotton seed meal, but it didn't ferment. I think the temperature was too low in AK, so I probably need to try again in the hottest time next year. The paper also point out that unknowns in the organic fertilizer could cause a bit of challenge (e.g. they suspected B toxicity in one organic fertilizer). The paper briefly mention about S deficiency, too, myxodex.

Some people in Japan seem to have good results with rapeseed for the mounted orchids (just hung a cake or tea bag near the top of the mount).

 

[Leo Schordje]

...............You're not still with the low K thing are you? Have you not seen enough evidence yet? :evil:

What evidence? My seem to be growing better than ever. Believe me, I am sensitive to color changes in my foliage, at the first signs of chlorosis or any other nutrition indicator, I look for a cause. So far I've had nothing but good results. But I am only 22 months into using K-Lite. So far I seem to have healthier plants than I ever had. I'll change when I can no longer say that, and with 40 years of growing orchids behind me I do know the difference between a healthy plant and a plant with nutritional imbalances. I am getting rapid growth from many seedlings, seems quicker than I used to get, so I am happy.

Of course I am not doing a controlled experiment, so you can accept my anecdotal evidence or not, and there is a complex interplay between other cultural factors, including temperature and light, but right now I'm pretty happy. Feel no need to change at the moment.

 

[Stone]

What evidence? My seem to be growing better than ever

.

I love this forum and value the input and experiences of all those who post here and I have learned a lot from them. However, I continue to be amazed at the mass conviction, regarding the superior performance of of very low potassium fertilizers. This whole thoery was based on K being in short supply to orchids in the habitat which is just plain incorrect. Everything is in short supply. N and K about the same (more or less) Even if it WAS correct, it makes no difference!

If you have not already done so, I strongly believe that you will (in time) come to realize that there is no scientific or even visual evidence that a 0.008 K/N ratio works any better than a ''normal'' ratio of say 0.8. I just don't get the head in the sand thing.

I recently heard of a Phrag (don't know the variety) with a flower spike which came up to your shoulders (from the ground) It was fed very heavily and constantly with regular fertilizer. Obviously it did not mind potassium! Evidence!
I can also claim that my Phal species ( schilleriana, speciosa, lindenii, philippinensis, amabilis, have never done better. Why? because I feed them at every watering with various fert mixes but always with a 1 to 0.8 N toK ratio and always at an EC of 0.8 d/Sm! Evidence!

When I visit other growers, I always gravitate to their best plants (especially Paphs) and ask what they feed with. I'm sure I don't have to mention their answer. Looking at their plants (usually much better than mine), I fail to see how they can be improved on for vigor, size or colour. Evidence!

The same goes with all of the worlds best orchids. The theory that these magnificent specimen plants will suddenly expire ( Rick's boom and bust) after they have reached their peak is absolute bunkem with no evidence of that whatsoever. No one I know reports it or even mentions it. I certainly have not experienced it. If it was a K related issue then sooner or later all would expire. Evidence!

Another grower had a an old multi growth P armeniacum in a bowl in her shade house. It flowers every year. I counted 5 old flower spikes and 7 growths. She feeds with a standard 10 5 10 type. Evidence!

And yet with all this proof, you (klite users) are led to believe that "No that's all wrong'' Klite is the way. It's a real head scratcher!

What more proof or evidence do you need to finally understand that K is almost never a problem?
If you have observed better growth using klite, I am very pleased but it must be due to some other reason. Something you were doing or not doing previously. Whether its more N or closer observation or better Ca nutrition I don't know, but I can only repeat again and again and again...... it has nothing to do with the low K........because....(stay with me here)......YOU CAN GROW PLANTS OF EQUAL OR BETTER QUALITY WITH MUCH HIGHER K. Just go and look they are everywhere! Tell me that is not true. If you can't, then you will throw away the klite because you are barking up the wrong tree.

Of course you could say that if they are doing better with kilte then you just don't care what is causing the improvement. Absolutely fine. But that is a self limiting point of view. There is plenty of ''evidence'' that it is not the low k that grows good plants.

If you want to grow the best orchids possible why limit yourself to klite? Many users of klite might take this as a personal attack. I hope not because it isn't. I'm simply trying to point out reality which some people refuse to acknowledge.

Down with religion!

 

[Bjorn]

Excuse me, but what has this to do with emersonii and hangianum?
Perhaps a new thread would be appropriate? FWIW: My personal opinion is that the trick lies in use of low fertiliser levels. Just read old literature; advices are 1/4 -1/10 of "normal" which transform to 100-250ppm TDS (NOT as N but all of it). Perhaps lower levels are even better??? (Its the amount and not K that is the culprit here) Another thing: where in nature do you find orchids that are fed intermittently with heavy loads of fertiliser for then, the next day, being flushed with very low fertiliser levels?:evil:

 

[Ozpaph]

I'm thinking a bit like Bjorn; less fertilizer is better and plenty of high quality water.

 

[Stone]

Excuse me, but what has this to do with emersonii and hangianum?
Perhaps a new thread would be appropriate? FWIW: My personal opinion is that the trick lies in use of low fertiliser levels. Just read old literature; advices are 1/4 -1/10 of "normal" which transform to 100-250ppm TDS (NOT as N but all of it). Perhaps lower levels are even better??? (Its the amount and not K that is the culprit here) Another thing: where in nature do you find orchids that are fed intermittently with heavy loads of fertiliser for then, the next day, being flushed with very low fertiliser levels?:evil:

:clap: