hangianum and emersonii

[Stone]

I know it's probably been covered before but can we have another look at what the successful growers are doing with these two?
Do you grow them the same way? Have you found one technique better than another?
I have a flask coming

 

[NYEric]

I have killed and and am trying to grow both. I have seen photos from Asia and they seem to be doing well in a less water retentive mix than I use. Also, they seem to grow warm. good Luck.

 

[Paul]

I don't know why, but I grow both the same and with much more success with my two hangianum than my two emersonii. hangianum has produced many growths and roots after recovering from the first bloom, emersonii is much slower to recover but it slowly does.
While the seedling I had from Sam is hard to start. I think there is a point when the plant starts to grow faster, as for some species.
Sam told me to grow a little cooler than average Paphs but brighter.

I think they like warm and humid summers and cooler (drier) winter like in their natural environnement

 

[Stone]

I think there is a point when the plant starts to grow faster, as for some species.

Yes I think it is much easier to start with a big plant but I can only get very small ones.

Sam told me to grow a little cooler than average Paphs but brighter.

From the habitat pictures it looks like both of these like a lot of shade?

 

[paworsport]

I don't know why, but I grow both the same and with much more success with my two hangianum than my two emersonii. hangianum has produced many growths and roots after recovering from the first bloom, emersonii is much slower to recover but it slowly does.
While the seedling I had from Sam is hard to start. I think there is a point when the plant starts to grow faster, as for some species.
Sam told me to grow a little cooler than average Paphs but brighter.

I think they like warm and humid summers and cooler (drier) winter like in their natural environnement

I have experience with both species and for emersonii I have observed a strong recovery and growth and roots activity after giving dithane and a lot of fertilizer + osmocote. Emersonii needs a lot of food. I add dolomie too every two months. During growing season : hot humid a lot of water (never let the plant dry like micranthum) Both need to be cultivated dryer and cooler from december to end of february. I will test the same micranthum conditions for emer and hang for this period of time

 

[eggshells]

I have experience with both species and for emersonii I have observed a strong recovery and growth and roots activity after giving dithane and a lot of fertilizer + osmocote. Emersonii needs a lot of food. I add dolomie too every two months. During growing season : hot humid a lot of water (never let the plant dry like micranthum) Both need to be cultivated dryer and cooler from december to end of february. I will test the same micranthum conditions for emer and hang for this period of time

You are the 3rd or 4th person that I know that had same results after applying mancozeb.

 

[Chicago Chad]

Can either of you explain the relationship between the two?

 

[Ozpaph]

In this country mancozeb often comes mixed with sulphur. Is it the sulphur??

 

[Erythrone]

Dithane contains Mancozeb and Paworsport wrote about dithane.

 

[Stone]

In this country mancozeb often comes mixed with sulphur. Is it the sulphur??

You can get stright mancozeb here too.

 

[SlipperKing]

Dithane is a great source for Mn and I believe Zn as well.

 

[paworsport]

Dithane is a great source for Mn and I believe Zn as well.

yes indeed and mancozeb if I 'm not wrong is the active substance in dithane which is a commercial name (I'm not sure some other things must be present in dithane)
I have given recently dithane to my 2 fairrieanum album and one month after application the two plants are greener make new strong roots and nice leaves. Before I have had hard time to grow them. A lack of something I suppose ? I give in 105210 to my paph often and I alternate with 202020 form peters or plant prod fert.

 

[eggshells]

Well I think the idea was because we are fertilizing in diluted amount. Thus we are not giving them enough micros as what they would see in nature.

If you have read Xavier's paper, there are some plants that can take significant quantities of a certain element. In this case Phal. malipoensis uptake of the element Boron.

From his paper:

"There are plants that can take crazy quantities of some elements, which would be totally deadly to some other plants. When Phalaenopsis malipoensis leaves were analyzed in Germany, the lab contacted me to ask for more samples, as they had never seen 210 ppm of boron in a plant that was still alive. The next batch of fresh wild leaves showed a figure slightly below 200, so the analyses were correct."

What element are we missing? Well that's the questions as I would assume that different plant species will be somewhat different. But folks are noticing improve results after applying mancozeb. Bjorn's with his seedlings/flask (randsii come to mind) and Philippe on his plants. I know of another grower who uses those on adductums too and we all know its hard to establish those. So what are are the ingredients on dithane/mancozeb? Boron, Mn, Zn or does it also contains Fe?

 

[eggshells]

Another thing that came to mind is Paph. ciliolaire. A friend from the Philippines told me that the reason why ciliolaire is hard to grow in culture is because they grow in ultramafic soil in the wild. So that soil perhaps contains Fe, Mn and other minerals.

 

[Stone]

What element are we missing? Well that's the questions as I would assume that different plant species will be somewhat different. But folks are noticing improve results after applying mancozeb. Bjorn's with his seedlings/flask (randsii come to mind) and Philippe on his plants. I know of another grower who uses those on adductums too and we all know its hard to establish those. So what are are the ingredients on dithane/mancozeb? Boron, Mn, Zn or does it also contains Fe?

I have been feeding my bonsai with a soybean meal/blood and bone cakes for years and have excellent results. The cakes are made by mixing dry ingredients with water and then leaving on trays to ferment and harden. They are then stored and used as needed.
I mention this because some growers in Japan use similar types of fertilizer for their orchids, especially Cymbidium but also Paphs. In Japan they traditionally use a rapeseed meal/bone meal mix. Recently I have found a source for organic Canola (rapeseed) meal and I have ordered some to try. I will mix this 75/25 with blood and bone as bone meal is unavailable here.
According to Tanaka, you must be careful to not over-do it and he suggests one piece of cake the size of the tip of your thumb per 4'' pot once per month or so.
I have included a link to a rapseed mineral analysis, (page 999).
http://www.journalofanimalscience.org/content/58/4/996.full.pdf
Have a look at the Mn Zn and B contents.
Perhaps the synthetic fertilizers we use are not the best choice? I intend to experiment with this organic approach on a few plants the entire growing season and will report back. I have taken ''before'' pics of all the plants.

 

[Rick]

yes indeed and mancozeb if I 'm not wrong is the active substance in dithane which is a commercial name (I'm not sure some other things must be present in dithane)
I have given recently dithane to my 2 fairrieanum album and one month after application the two plants are greener make new strong roots and nice leaves. Before I have had hard time to grow them. A lack of something I suppose ? I give in 105210 to my paph often and I alternate with 202020 form peters or plant prod fert.

Diavalent cationic metals like Mn and (especially Zn) are great antagonists of K.

My emersonii have taken off on low K and general "starvation" rations.

 

[Rick]

Another thing that came to mind is Paph. ciliolaire. A friend from the Philippines told me that the reason why ciliolaire is hard to grow in culture is because they grow in ultramafic soil in the wild. So that soil perhaps contains Fe, Mn and other minerals.

I don't think they are hard to grow.

Rothschildianum is probably a better case of a species growing over ultramafic soil, and another plant that has very well for me giving it less than more.

Studies of tropical forest ultramic soils do not indicate high pH, and the most outstanding crazy element is usually nickel. But leaf tissue analysis of tropical plants over forest ultramafic soils don't generally show much anything different from plants growing over limestone.

 

[Rick]

Once again we are looking at plants growing on limestone cliffs with lots of relatively low dilution water trickling over them. Generally impoverished environments.

I don't think we are missing anything, but overloading these guys and causing imbalances.

 

[Rick]

I would like to get CxCanh involved in this discussion.

According to Averyanov (with in situ pics) these guys are obligate lithophytes on bare limestone with roots exposed or partially embedded in mosses. Also he list hangianum found in conjunction with henryanum and tranlineanum. Emersonii seem to be found close by (or adjacent hills) but on harder limestone (hangianum on crumbling travertine).

Mike I think you should revisit your thread on crack/crevice dwellers before going into organic media.

Given that henryanum (I'm also not aware of folks having big problems with tranlineanum either) doesn't need exotic micro nutrient chemistry to do well, I seriously doubt that hangianum and emersonii need the kitchen sink treatment to do well.

 

[naoki]

I don't have access to this, but does it have some interesting info?
http://kbd.kew.org/kbd/detailedresult.do?id=367319
If you have an access, I'd like to take a look at it.

Is this what you are talking about, Rick? Or are you looking at his book?

Thanks for the rapeseed info, Mike. Do you compost/ferment it? Without it, I guess most of the minerals aren't accessible, right?