General Orchid Taxonomy

[Braem]

Littlefrog

Dear Rob,

greetings

I know she signed on

Guido

PS. Why "littlefrog"

I don't think Sandy is lurking here... But next time I see her I'll give her a poke.

Rob

 

[littlefrog]

Littlefrog? The night before my daughter was born I found a little tree frog on the kitchen counter (not before and not since as far as I know). Was looking for a nursery name at the time, and that one stuck. It is distinctive, if nothing else.

 

[Braem]

Wendy,

By the way. The identity of Phrag. Simon Marcotte is not secured either. The person who registered the hybrid did not make the hybrid and some information I got indicates that he did not know the parents. Thus, it would have been a wild guess to register it as "ecuadorense x Nitidissimum".
And that is one of our problems. How could one make sure that those things don't happen.

Guido

What about Phrag tetzlaffianum? In your opinion is it a species or a hybrid? I have heard that it may be in fact Phrag Simon Marcotte (ecuadorense x Nitidissimum). I have both plant but to date have only bloomed the tetzlaffianum and have been unable to compare.

 

[Wendy]

The person who registered Phrag Simon Marcotte and had it awarded is a friend of mine and also posts on this forum. Hopefully he will post in this thread.

There is so much to learn....thank you!

 

[gonewild]

Wendy,

By the way. The identity of Phrag. Simon Marcotte is not secured either. The person who registered the hybrid did not make the hybrid and some information I got indicates that he did not know the parents. Thus, it would have been a wild guess to register it as "ecuadorense x Nitidissimum".
And that is one of our problems. How could one make sure that those things don't happen.

Guido

I don't think there is any way to avoid this kind of problem. Relying on the honor system will always produce "errors" within the information.

 

[Wendy]

My friend bought the plant off of a society sales table and it was labeled as (ecuadorense x Nitidissimum) at the time of purchase. He had nothing to do with what was on the label. When it was awarded he had to name the cross before the award became official.

 

[gonewild]

My friend bought the plant off of a society sales table and it was labeled as (ecuadorense x Nitidissimum) at the time of purchase. He had nothing to do with what was on the label. When it was awarded he had to name the cross before the award became official.

There is nothing more he could do other than trust what the label said. It would even be a worse situation if he had disregarded the label info and tried to second guess a different set of parents.

 

[Heather]

Littlefrog? The night before my daughter was born I found a little tree frog on the kitchen counter (not before and not since as far as I know). Was looking for a nursery name at the time, and that one stuck. It is distinctive, if nothing else.

Dr. Rob....I am wondering what you will find on your kitchen counter this time! Hopefully nothing too crazy.

Oh, and I'm pretty sure Sandy is a member here as Sandy O.

 

[littlefrog]

Dr. Rob....I am wondering what you will find on your kitchen counter this time! Hopefully nothing too crazy.

Oh, and I'm pretty sure Sandy is a member here as Sandy O.

I'm kind of hoping for a pile of gold bricks... Or maybe a Dendrobates fantasticus pair. If that is going to show up, it better be soon!

 

[Braem]

Yes, that would be great. It would really be great to hear his side of the story.

Guido

The person who registered Phrag Simon Marcotte and had it awarded is a friend of mine and also posts on this forum. Hopefully he will post in this thread.

There is so much to learn....thank you!

 

[Braem]

Lance,

I beg to differ. He should not have registered a hybrid without being certain what the parents are. In fact, in my opinion, he misused the hybrid registration system. Unfortunately this happens very much.

And no, the situation would not have been worse if he had disregarded the information on the label.

Guido

There is nothing more he could do other than trust what the label said. It would even be a worse situation if he had disregarded the label info and tried to second guess a different set of parents.

 

[Braem]

This has nothing to do with honour systems of any kind. If you don't know what the hybrid is, don't register it. And I don't think that the RHS will be very happy when reading this tread.


Guido

I don't think there is any way to avoid this kind of problem. Relying on the honor system will always produce "errors" within the information.

 

[Braem]

That is what I figured out, and she told me in an email yesterday that she has registered. I hope we can convince her to come in. Rob, you may have to go and talk to her over a glas of Beringer (You know the way from O'Hare and I wish I could join).

Guido

Oh, and I'm pretty sure Sandy is a member here as Sandy O.

 

[gonewild]

Lance,

I beg to differ. He should not have registered a hybrid without being certain what the parents are. In fact, in my opinion, he misused the hybrid registration system. Unfortunately this happens very much.

And no, the situation would not have been worse if he had disregarded the information on the label.

Guido

Guido,

I don't think we differ in our opinions. But I think we view the situation here differently.

I completely agree if he was not certain of the parents he should not have registered the hybrid. But why should he have known to disregard the label? Did he have reason to believe the label was incorrect?

Inventing (or guessing at) the parents because there was no label would have been a misuse of the registration system. Using the label information in not misuse of the system. On the contrary it is how the system is designed. You can't have persons second guessing what is recorded on a label and making the lineage conform as to what they think it might be. That is unless the person doing the "guessing" is an expert and can determine without doubt the correct lineage of the hybrid. There are few people qualified to perform a task as this. I imagine you are quite qualified for this but I doubt you have the time to review all the hybrids that need be registered by horticulturists.

The situation would have been worse had he disregarded the label information. Had he used his best judgment as to the parents and registered it that way would have been a misuse of the registration system. At least with the labeled parents recorded in the registration someone in the future has a chance at searching back to find the error.

Of course we are in agreement if there was doubt about the label accuracy the hybrid should not have been registered.

Horticulturaly speaking the possible error of the mis-registered hybrid is of little consequence. Two species crossed and given a name is OK for any offspring resulting from future crosses between the two specie. Where the misuse of the system would come into play is if the "clone" in question is used for breeding under the suspect name.

So is the problem here with a misuse of the registration system or simply a single mislabeled clone?

 

[gonewild]

This has nothing to do with honour systems of any kind. If you don't know what the hybrid is, don't register it. And I don't think that the RHS will be very happy when reading this tread.


Guido

I think what you said above is the honor system. Is it not?

I don't understand why the RHS will be unhappy about reading this thread. Please elaborate, I'm interested in your opinion.

 

[Braem]

Lance,

OK, I will go along with that.

Guido

Guido,

I don't think we differ in our opinions. But I think we view the situation here differently.

I completely agree if he was not certain of the parents he should not have registered the hybrid. But why should he have known to disregard the label? Did he have reason to believe the label was incorrect?

Inventing (or guessing at) the parents because there was no label would have been a misuse of the registration system. Using the label information in not misuse of the system. On the contrary it is how the system is designed. You can't have persons second guessing what is recorded on a label and making the lineage conform as to what they think it might be. That is unless the person doing the "guessing" is an expert and can determine without doubt the correct lineage of the hybrid. There are few people qualified to perform a task as this. I imagine you are quite qualified for this but I doubt you have the time to review all the hybrids that need be registered by horticulturists.

The situation would have been worse had he disregarded the label information. Had he used his best judgment as to the parents and registered it that way would have been a misuse of the registration system. At least with the labeled parents recorded in the registration someone in the future has a chance at searching back to find the error.

Of course we are in agreement if there was doubt about the label accuracy the hybrid should not have been registered.

Horticulturaly speaking the possible error of the mis-registered hybrid is of little consequence. Two species crossed and given a name is OK for any offspring resulting from future crosses between the two specie. Where the misuse of the system would come into play is if the "clone" in question is used for breeding under the suspect name.

So is the problem here with a misuse of the registration system or simply a single mislabeled clone?

 

[Braem]

Well, because, they must realise that (no matter who is at fault here) the registration system is a problem. If you can register any hybrid without proof of correctness in respect to the parents ... you can register just about anything. All you have to do is figure out the combinations that have not been registered yet. :evil:

Guido

I think what you said above is the honor system. Is it not?

I don't understand why the RHS will be unhappy about reading this thread. Please elaborate, I'm interested in your opinion.

 

[gonewild]

Well, because, they must realise that (no matter who is at fault here) the registration system is a problem. If you can register any hybrid without proof of correctness in respect to the parents ... you can register just about anything. All you have to do is figure out the combinations that have not been registered yet. :evil:

Guido

You mean they never thought of that? :rollhappy: Figures.

The only solution would be to not allow the hybridizer to choose the hybrid name and keep the naming to taxonomical standards. The horticulturists could choose clonal names for individual clones within a hybrid grex.

Of course this would take a lot of sport and fun out of hybridizing. It would also make for a lot of boring commercial sales names for the horticultural industry. It also would not solve the problem of hybridizing with mislabeled plants.

 

[Braem]

Lance,

That is not what I mean. The name itself does not matter. I have no problem with Phrag KittyKat or Phrag Lance's Delight. What they need to do (in my opinion) is develop some rules by which they can check whether the parentage given is correct. How they would do that, I ignore at this point in time. I don't know whether someone from the RHS is on this forum who could comment.
No-one wants to take the fun out of hybridizing. And you have pointed at the real problem: hybridizing with mislabeled plants. That is what we must rule out as much as possible. Or passing on erronerous information.

Guido

You mean they never thought of that? :rollhappy: Figures.

The only solution would be to not allow the hybridizer to choose the hybrid name and keep the naming to taxonomical standards. The horticulturists could choose clonal names for individual clones within a hybrid grex.

Of course this would take a lot of sport and fun out of hybridizing. It would also make for a lot of boring commercial sales names for the horticultural industry. It also would not solve the problem of hybridizing with mislabeled plants.

 

[SlipperFan]

I'm back on-line -- my cable connection was down for awhile. This is a great thread.

I am of the understanding that if I get a plant awarded that doesn't have a name, before I can name it, I must try to locate the hybridizer and ask them if they want to name the plant. If I can't locate the hybridizer, then after a certain period of time, I can submit a name. The same is true if I make a hybrid from parent(s) that are unnamed. Before I can name my hybrid, I must try to locate the hybridizer of the parent(s). This has happened with us more than once at Porter's Orchids. I wonder if this procedure was followed with the plant you are talking about.

I do hope Sandy weighs in. I contacted her a couple of weeks ago when this thread was getting going. She hadn't heard of SlipperTalk at that point, but she does now.

So, come on, Sandy...