General Orchid Taxonomy

[Braem]

I believe Dot said in her case the hybridizer was dead.

Yes, and that is why I said, tough ... . You just can't register a hybrid if you don't know the correct parentage.

Guido

 

[Braem]

Unless the "wild" plant in question is in fact a hybrid or genetic sport and only exists as a single individual in the wild.

Lance, that you will have to explain to me, I am afraid

Guido

 

[Braem]

But the registration of a hybrid has nothing to do with what is written on the label of a plant. The registration of a hybrid is merely a permanent name assigned to the combination of two other plants. The name is used by every future cross for the same two "named plants", it is not exclusive to the original seed pod.

Oh Lord, yes, But if you claim that P. Hanne Popow is besseae x schlimii, and it is not, then all the true besseae x schlimii are not Hanne Popow.

In the grand scope of things it matters not who gives the name. So the registered name "Simon Marcotle" is correct for (ecuadorense x Nitidissium). Now quite possibly the person registering the hybrid does not actually own a plant of "Simon Marcotle" and if so should unlabel it. But we are talking about one clone. Now if someone in the future makes the cross between (ecuadorense x Nitidissium) it will already be registered as "Simon Marcotle". No harm done as far as registration is concerned, except someone falsely got credit for being the first to make the cross.

OK first of all it is fraud. Secondly, it is cheating the system as I am sure that the Orchid Registrar does not want anyone to register under false data. And thirdly, what happens when the "false Simon Marcotte" is used as a parent?

In the case of the above scenario I don't see the harm done to the "registration system".

Well, I beg to differ.

If in fact 70% or more of the named orchid hybrids are incorrectly labeled then there is no point in trying to figure out a better method. It is beyond repair.

Now here we agree in as far as the existing system is beyond repair. But there is a solution. Start all over with a new and better system. Now I don't know whether that is realistic, but that is a different story.
But what you are saying is: "Hey, they have been cheating all the time, so lets continue cheating."

Guido

 

[Braem]

Lance,

it is one of the questions I wanted to address as hybrid taxonomy is now part of the Code.

But I think we have made it clear that there is a problem. And I am happy if some people stated to think about it.

And there are many other problems.

Guido

Guido,

This is your thread, without going back and re-reading all 12 pages I'm not sure we are still on the subject you intended to follow. (Although I think it is a good discussion). Please redirect the focus if you feel we are straying off topic.

 

[Braem]

With regards to 'specie' vs. 'species', I've seen if often referred to as 'specie', generally by Europeans. Is this just a case of differences in spelling, i.e. 'colour' vs. 'color'?

Heather,

no, it is just a mistake. There is no such word as "specie".

Guido

 

[Braem]

Got me! In the past I always wrote "species". I see it used both ways on the Internet and the spell checker suggested "specie" so I let it change it. I figured it was another word (name ) change. Looking it up in the dictionary shows specie is coin money!
I'll differ to Guido's expertise and use "species".

Lance,

I stand corrected. thanks for pointing the "specie" out to me.

Thus I will correct myself: In Botany there s no such word as "specie".

Guido

 

[gonewild]

Yes, and that is why I said, tough ... . You just can't register a hybrid if you don't know the correct parentage.

Guido

I agree you should not register a hybrid unless you know the correct parentage. However, when the plant is labeled you may in good conscience assume the parentage is correct. Just because a person dies is no reason to ignore their hybrids and say they can't be registered by their heirs or other persons as allowed by the registration system. That would be a discredit and a loss.

 

[gonewild]

Yes, and that is why I said, tough ... . You just can't register a hybrid if you don't know the correct parentage.

Guido

Actually, you can and it seems to be quite easy to do so. Change your word "can't" to "shouldn't" and we are in agreement.

 

[gonewild]

Oh Lord, yes, But if you claim that P. Hanne Popow is besseae x schlimii, and it is not, then all the true besseae x schlimii are not Hanne Popow.

NO! Only the offspring from the first incorrectly labeled besseae x schlimii are not Hanne Popow. Any future cross between besseae x schlimii is in fact Hanne Popow.

OK first of all it is fraud. Secondly, it is cheating the system as I am sure that the Orchid Registrar does not want anyone to register under false data. And thirdly, what happens when the "false Simon Marcotte" is used as a parent?

It is not really fraud unless it was done on purpose to deceive. It the case of registering a mislabeled hybrid it is extreme to call this fraud. The false Simon Marcotte should of course not be used for breeding. If it is used in breeding and clonal names of the crosses are kept on the labels the error could be traced back in the future if need be. Here is where the honor system must come into play.

Well, I beg to differ.

I'll have to check back on this as I can't see in the copied quote what you are differing with.

Now here we agree in as far as the existing system is beyond repair. But there is a solution. Start all over with a new and better system. Now I don't know whether that is realistic, but that is a different story.
But what you are saying is: "Hey, they have been cheating all the time, so lets continue cheating."

Guido

We can't start over. Too many labeled plants... people won't do it. A certain percentage of people will also cheat any new system.

 

[John M]

Okay, I've had enough of all this crap from Mr. Braem.

I will now weigh in on the subject of the registration of Phrag. Simon Marcotte to set the record straight and to show that Mr. Braem is talking a bunch of ignorant nonsense.

"By the way. The identity of Phrag. Simon Marcotte is not secured either. The person who registered the hybrid did not make the hybrid and some information I got indicates that he did not know the parents. Thus, it would have been a wild guess to register it as "ecuadorense x Nitidissimum".
Guido" [Unquote]

Mr. Braem,
I would like you to elaborate on your "information" indicating that I "did not know the parents". Where did you ever get that idea? Of course, I knew the parents! They were written on the label! I had no reason to disbelieve the label!

Furthermore, your whole argument has an enormous, gaping hole in it! Even if I had been the originator of the cross, how could I be any more sure of the names of the parent plants that I used, than I could be of the parent names on the label of my purchased plant? In order to be (as you say below- "certain what the parents are."), every hybridizer would have to research the lineage of every single plant (every single clone!), that they ever use in breeding, right back to all of the original wild plants that are in any given hybrids' family tree. That's rediculous and not possible. It's-Pie-in-the-Sky thinking!

"I beg to differ. He should not have registered a hybrid without being certain what the parents are. In fact, in my opinion, he misused the hybrid registration system. Unfortunately this happens very much.
And no, the situation would not have been worse if he had disregarded the information on the label.
Guido" [Unquote]

Mr. Braem,
I was as certain as anybody could be! The plant had a label listing the parents. The plant and flowers looked to my eyes as something that would have such parents. Even the judges who awarded the plant and were familiar with both parents, accepted the parents on the label as correct. I was certain of the parentage - by default.....in that, there was no reason to not be certain! Why on earth can't you get your head wrapped around that concept!? Why do you feel so compelled to make assumptions and publicly accuse me of wrongdoing?

I DID NOT "misuse the hybrid registration system!!!!! How dare you so ignorantly accuse me of such a thing! You have no idea about what you are talking about; but, you would have everyone here think that you know everything! I bought the plant in '89 or '90 from a members' sales table at a show. It had a label that said "Phrag. ecuadorense x Nitidissimum". I thought, "Oh, that would be nice,...a sort of miniaturized, long, twisty-petalled flower with more interesting markings....and it should be easy to grow!" So, I bought it. It grew and eventually bloomed. Guess what I got? I got ".....a sort of miniaturized, long, twisty-petalled flower with more interesting markings....and it [was] easy to grow"! WooHoo! Lucky me! I got exactly what I expected; judging from the parents listed on the label when I bought it! As the plant increased in size, it bloomed again and side branched (a characteristic of one of the Great-grandparents). It held more than one flower at each blooming tip (a characteristic of one of the Grandparents). I loved my little plant with all the flowers. I took it to a judging. It was greatly admired and awarded an AM/AOS; but, the hybrid (ecuadorense x Nitidissimum), was not yet registered. So, I was told to try and track down the originator of the cross and either get them to register the cross, or, get permission to do it myself. Because of the anonymous nature of the way a members' sales table works at a show (from the buyers' (my), perspective) and the fact that I'd bought the plant a few years before it was awarded, I was unable to find out who provided this plant for sale on the members' table, in the first place. I asked the Chairman of the judging centre what I should do and I was instructed to write a letter to the RHS and explain all this to them. I wrote a letter to the RHS Orchid Registrar and explained my predicament and respectfully requested that I be allowed to register the cross in the absence of having any knowledge of the originator. The RHS agreed with this and accepted my registration fee and allowed the registration to go through. The fact that I did not know the originator of the cross is recorded by the "o/u" which follows my name in the list of orchid hybrids. The designation "o/u" means "originator unknown", referring to the fact that while it was I who registered the cross, the RHS was aware of the fact that the originator of the cross was not known.

MR. BRAEM:
I DID NOTHING WRONG OR DISHONEST! I FOLLOWED THE INSTRUCTIONS TO THE LETTER THAT I WAS GIVEN BY THE HIGHER AUTHORITIES INVOLVED. I STRONGLY OBJECT TO YOUR HELL-BENT ENTHUSIASM IN CALLING MY INTEGRITY INTO QUESTION. YOU HAVE SPOUTED OFF ON THIS SUBJECT AND ACCUSED ME DIRECTLY OR IMPLIED INDIRECTLY THAT I AM A DISHONEST, SNEAKY AND MANIPULATIVE PERSON. YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. YOU HAVE MADE WILD ASSUMPTIONS AND PRESENTED THEM AS FACT IN THIS FORUM. SHAME ON YOU AND HOW DARE YOU DO THAT TO ME! I'D HAVE EXPECTED YOU TO BE A LOT MORE PROFESSIONAL, THAN TO DEGENERATE INTO A "GOSSIPING GRANNY", PASSING ON YOUR PERSONAL, ILL-CONCEIVED SPECULATION, AS THOUGH IT WERE UNDISPUTED FACT!

"This has nothing to do with honour systems of any kind. If you don't know what the hybrid is, don't register it. And I don't think that the RHS will be very happy when reading this tread.
Guido" [UNQUOTE]

Mr. Bream,
There was NO reason for me to think that I did not know what the hybrid was. It was labelled with both parents. There was nothing to indicate that it might not be what the label said. The team of judges who awarded it also must've agreed that it was labelled correctly; since they awarded it, based on the parentage listed on the label. They saw the plant in person. They looked at it from every angle. They touched it and poked it and prodded it and measured it. Then, they compared it to numerous other clones of each of the parents. You have only seen a slide, which is just from one angle and only two dimentional. Regretably (now), it was I who provided the slide to you, sent via a mutual friend of ours that lives nearby me. It is amazing to me that from viewing that one slide, you think that you are able to conjure up accurate accounts of the thoughts going through my head all those years ago, as I filled out the hybrid registration application form.

You assume that I lied to the RHS. Well, as explained above, I actually sought their advice as to what to do!!!!! Your speculation about my integrity and presenting a less than flattering opinion about me, is a despicable thing to do! How'd you like it if I started dreaming up nasty things about you and talked about them on this forum as thought they were all true? I bet you'd be furious and feel extremely violated by an idiot buffoon!

Stating your oppinion about the way you think the RHS should run the orchid hybrid registry is perfectly reasonable. That is a fair and reasonable discussion to have. Perhaps something useful would come out of such a discussion and be adopted by the RHS....to the benefit of all. However, you have crossed the line and spoken about someone (me), who you do not know, about circumstances (the details of which you are not familiar) and you've stated information that you do not know for certain to be true. All this speculative babbling by you is damaging to my reputation and my good standing within the orchid community.

Mr. Braem,
From this point forward, you are well advised to be sure to "put your brain in gear before putting your mouth in gear". If you intend to continue to comment on the circumstances surrounding the registration of Phrag. Simon Marcotte and what I may have said, or done, or been thinking, please keep your comments confined to the things that you know for "certain", which evidently, is very little. I've had my fill of your damning speculation and character bashing.

 

[Braem]

I agree you should not register a hybrid unless you know the correct parentage. However, when the plant is labeled you may in good conscience assume the parentage is correct. Just because a person dies is no reason to ignore their hybrids and say they can't be registered by their heirs or other persons as allowed by the registration system. That would be a discredit and a loss.

Lance, I am fighting against windmills, and I am afraid that you are one of them.
You should not register a hybrid if you are not sure about the parentage. STOP
IF you cannot find out about the parentage (for whatever reasons, including the passing away of the "creator"), you don't know the parentage and ergo you should not register the hybrid. END

You buy a lottery ticket. Your ticket wins, but you have lost your ticket. Do you get the money?

You go to the bank. You want a mortgage. They ask you: have you bought a house. You say yes. They say: where is it? You say, I have forgotten, do you get the mortgage?

Und that is really the end of this debate as far as I am concerned.

Guido

 

[Braem]

Thank you John M for this post,

it shows all how right I am. You did nou know the parents. You did not care. You cheated the system by registering a hybrid which is not secured. And for me, you don't have any integrity to worry about.

Okay,
Mr. Braem,
I would like you to elaborate on your "information" indicating that I "did not know the parents". Where did you ever get that idea? Of course, I knew the parents! They were written on the label! I had no reason to disbelieve the label!

Lovely, you obviously don't understand that with that paragraph, you proved my point. Thank you.

End of debate.

 

[Heather]

If the RHS does not disallow situations such as John's (the fact that he wrote, explained the situation, and they allowed the registration to go forward) I do not see how the person wanting to name the cross is at fault here. I'd say the fault here is more on the RHS since they set and enforce the policies, not the hybridizer or person wishing to register it.

I will now remind everyone of rule #5 of the forum. Please keep things civil...be nice!
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=19998#post19998

 

[bench72]

ok, Dummy here again, trying to make light of this discussion...

1. I cannot register a hybrid if I didn't make the cross because I am not certain of the parents. So I'll make the cross!

2. But, one of the parents is a hybrid, so I need to also know that the parents of that hybrid is legitimate. So, I have to do the hybridizing there just to make sure.

3. Gosh, I've just noticed that Paphiopedilum Winston Churchill has about five generations in that family tree, so I really need to know all those parents as well... I'm glad I'm young enough to do all these hyrbidising.

4. Oh but wait, just because I am down to the species level, how do I know that I actually have that species, after all, I'm not a taxonomist!

5. Well, I guess the only people who can name hybrids will be taxonomists!

 

[John M]

"You did nou know the parents." [Unquote]
I knew the parents as well as anyone could be reasonably expected to know them.

"You did not care." [Unquote]
There you go again, pretending that you're a mind reader.

You cheated the system by registering a hybrid which is not secured. [Unquote]

I cannot cheat a "system" that knew all the facts and gave its' blessing for me to register the hybrid. The "system" is where I got my instructions about what to do. Therefore, the "system" was not cheated. The systems' protocol was fulfilled as I followed the instructions that I was given. There is a difference between the way the actual system works and what you personally think is the way that it should work. If you have a beef with the RHS, then take it up with them. Do not bash a person just because they followed the systems' rules and not your rules.

"And for me, you don't have any integrity to worry about." [Unquote]
My post stands up very well to that attack. Now, you are simply desperate to save face. It's far too late for that. You have already lost all credibility.

"Lovely, you obviously don't understand that with that paragraph, you proved my point. Thank you." [Unquote]
Which point is that? The one where you think that the RHS rules are flawed, or the one where you maintain that I am a cheater?

"End of debate."
Your ignorance and arrogance knows no bounds, Mr. Braem.

 

[John M]

"I will now remind everyone of rule #5 of the forum. Please keep things civil...be nice!" [Unquote]

Heather, of course you are correct. That is why it took me so long to post. I wrote a reply to Dr. Braems' accusations and then spent the next few days editing out the inappropriate stuff. What I posted was the nicest and most civil version that I could come up with; considering the unjust bashing that I'd suffered from Mr. Braem.

 

[John M]

Gotta go and water now. All my (apparently) bastard, nameless plants (even though they do have tags), are thirsty.

 

[gonewild]

Lance, I am fighting against windmills, and I am afraid that you are one of them.Guido

Before I write any further in this thread I would like to know if I have just been insulted?

 

[Braem]

Heather,

I fully agree that part of the fault is to be given to the RHS. However, I still maintain that John M should not have registered the hybrid. And I still maintain that registering a hybrid without knowing the parentage is cheating on the system and dishonest towards the RHS and the orchid community.

It is not because someone leaves a door open that you have to go in.

Guido

 

[Braem]

Before I write any further in this thread I would like to know if I have just been insulted?

NO. I just said that I fought against something that I can't fight against. We obviously have different opinions about the issue, but that is OK.

Guido