Fredclarkeara After Dark 'SVO Black Pearl' FCC/AOS

[Kavanaru]

Fabrice,
do not worry too much about your plant. As I mentioned before, the key to make a Catasetinae bloom is lots of light (I would try to increase this in your case during the next growth cycle: maybe a couple of hours more). and lots of water and fertilizer during the growing cycle. Some times, Catasetinae just refise to bloom 1 or 2 years, and this is common also in nature. If you plant lost the leave already, do not water anymore (HIGH Risk of loosing your plant!). I have 4 Fdk After Dark (two of them 'Black Pearl'). They are all growing under the same conditions, but not all of them bloom every year... this year,one of the BP produced spikes (no leave on the PBs!) and the other has done nothing! Last year, one ofthe bloomed with still growing PBs and another started to spike in January! What I want to say is that as a complex hybrid (of not 100% compaible genera), plants can behave a little bit weird sometimes.

I thinkI had suggested these articles before, but here they are again. IMO a very good work on Catasetinae:

http://www.aos.org/AM/Images/pdf/Beginners_Series-Ctsm1.pdf
http://www.aos.org/AM/Images/pdf/Beginners_Series-Ctsm2.pdf
http://www.aos.org/AM/Images/pdf/Beginners_Series-Ctsm3.pdf
http://www.aos.org/AM/Images/pdf/Beginners_Series-Ctsm4.pdf
http://www.aos.org/AM/Images/pdf/Beginners_Series-Ctsm5.pdf
http://www.aos.org/AM/Images/pdf/Beginners_Series-Ctsm6.pdf
http://www.aos.org/AM/Images/pdf/Beginners_Series-Ctsm7.pdf

 

[Fabrice]

Thank you very much Ramon.

I cross my fingers and thanks to you. I will have a good Christmas.

 

[toddybear]

Unreal! I love it!

 

[Lycaste53]

[FONT=&quot]Sometimes, when I read threads like that, I ask myself:
What is real beauty? The blackest black, the flatest shape, the ulitmate pelorism, the strangest aberration..., ? That´s it? Mericloning these products and good marketing make these creations availible in every supermarket worldwide after some years...That´s it?
For my taste, it´s quite dark, it swallows light, but there are much more beautiful catasetine which are colored, which are reflecting light, I like them more....
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Best regards, Gina
[/FONT]

 

[Roth]

A fantastic clone, which thanks to mericloning technique has been made easily available.

Congratuations for the great culture! In the next years you will have an even more fantastic show with this plant!

Unfortunately I would not at all be grateful for the very poor mericloning technic that has been applied to it and many other things in Taiwan. It will just produce weaker, smaller, and duller flowers quite soon. I think the one from Peter is from the first proliferation batch, so it should be quite OK ( but not to be cloned subsequently). They still proliferate the same calluses, and now they have many muted, stunted plants.

I have seen some of the mericloned plants just last week, and most were muted or stunted. They should make smaller batches, maybe a bit more expensive, instead of those massive quantities of muted plants. I have seen some of the Wine's Delight JEM FCC/AOS plants ( many hundreds), blooming size, and they are dwarfed plants of the real original plant. Same for the Vuylstykeara Cambria Plush, the original one got a medal at the RHS with a couple hundreds flowers on 150cm spikes, branching like hell. The clones never make more than a dozen, maybe a bit more, per spike, on a 40-50 cm spike. 'Cloning' NEVER produces perfect clones if you want more than a couple dozen plants.

As an aside, many nurseries know it, and that's why they will charge you still a couple hundreds USD for a division, and a couple USD for a blooming size mericlone. The former can be used for breeding and propagation safely, the later, absolutely not.

 

[Kavanaru]

Unfortunately I would not at all be grateful for the very poor mericloning technic that has been applied to it and many other things in Taiwan. It will just produce weaker, smaller, and duller flowers quite soon. I think the one from Peter is from the first proliferation batch, so it should be quite OK ( but not to be cloned subsequently). They still proliferate the same calluses, and now they have many muted, stunted plants.

I have seen some of the mericloned plants just last week, and most were muted or stunted. They should make smaller batches, maybe a bit more expensive, instead of those massive quantities of muted plants. I have seen some of the Wine's Delight JEM FCC/AOS plants ( many hundreds), blooming size, and they are dwarfed plants of the real original plant. Same for the Vuylstykeara Cambria Plush, the original one got a medal at the RHS with a couple hundreds flowers on 150cm spikes, branching like hell. The clones never make more than a dozen, maybe a bit more, per spike, on a 40-50 cm spike. 'Cloning' NEVER produces perfect clones if you want more than a couple dozen plants.

As an aside, many nurseries know it, and that's why they will charge you still a couple hundreds USD for a division, and a couple USD for a blooming size mericlone. The former can be used for breeding and propagation safely, the later, absolutely not.

I agree with you in most points about mericloning... however, my point was that this plant was very expensive (a division is still very expensive, and there are good reasons for it, as you already mentioned), and when Fred Clarke got it mericloned, it was made available (stil at a quite high price for a Catasetum, but still ok). I am not aware they are being mericloned now in Taiwan, as so far the only source I know is Fred Clarke. I would not buy it for 100$ coming from Taiwan, but would stay to the first batch from Fred Clarke. Admitted, not sure how many clones he let be produced for that batch, but at least, there are higher chances to have something closer to the original plant.

On the other side, and that more im poratnt to me regarding this hybrid, is the fact that just very few people had interest on Catasetinae until Fred Clarke produced this hybrid. It was admired and desired by many (nevertheless, the famous myth about the Black Orchid was "easily" available
and with a much better flower than the almost unknown Maxillaria schunkeana) It was not until Fred mericloned the two best plants, that they were available to most people (for a very long time ONLY in USA - and a division is almost imposible to be obtained), making it even more desirable for most hobbyist. Now, this availability ofthe "Black Orchid" raised the interest in many people about this group, learning how to grow them and about the diversity of it. (similar to the discovery of Pk and the "renaissance" of Phragmipedium in modern times)

Now, if a side effect of this is that Taiwanese, Timbuktians or Martians start mass-mericloning some good plants for the flower market, I accept that with a smile on my face! I know some people are 1000000000% against this, but I think it is a side effect of the current society, and it is silly to stop or fight again... The Orchids-hobby continues changing and either we adapt to it or we drop it... Professional growing is a different story, fully agree... and with mass mericloning, it is very difficult for "traditional" growers to compete.. however, there is and will always be a market for them as well, small one, as ithas been most of the time, as there will be people like most of us in this forum, who would rather buy a new bred plant or a division than a mass-mericloned one (However, I must admit that I also have some mass mericloned plant which are otherwise not easily available, e.g. Ctsm pileatum 'Oro Verde' and Fdk After Dark 'Black Pearl')... and last but not least, this is a current peak on the market, and will change when they offer a new "fashion" flower...

 

[Roth]

I am not aware they are being mericloned now in Taiwan, as so far the only source I know is Fred Clarke. I would not buy it for 100$ coming from Taiwan, but would stay to the first batch from Fred Clarke.

From Taiwan, flask of 40 seedlings ( they have several of the awarded After Dark, and many, many other awarded vars and hybrids), 40USD. Individual plant blooming size 12USD.

In Thailand, a flask is right now 600THB/40 seedlings, again they have all the awarded ones available. Different stock and different lab from Taiwan.

On the other side, and that more im poratnt to me regarding this hybrid, is the fact that just very few people had interest on Catasetinae until Fred Clarke produced this hybrid. It was admired and desired by many (nevertheless, the famous myth about the Black Orchid was "easily" available

And, no matter how excellent Fred Clarke is at breeding catasetinae ( he is indeed), he will be dead in a few years if Taiwan and Thailand do not stop cloning everything they can get their hands on, that's absolutely true, and sure.

The thing is that hobbyists are grossly uneducated too regarding cloning and dividing plants. A clone is a nice thing to display, like a photocopy. It will never be identical to the mother plant in its smallers details ( except the small run, like Fred Clarke did of his own plants, and even so there are still mutations). When Taiwan will supply all the catasetinae as mericlone, Fred Clarke days as a breeder will be over. The same happened to Stewart's orchids with the cattleya. When they were propagated in Taiwan, no one would dare to make commercially a cattleya hybrid orchid nursery today.

The Orchid Zone did make new rothschildianum seedlings, yet I am not sure if they are going to carry on for many generations. A blooming size roth is now 8USD in Taiwan ( with a nice tag showing nice possible parents), and for those who want, they got some of their real motherplants from the Orchid Zone as well, at least for some nurseries. But they make thousands of seedlings at cheap price. They are not creative as well, except a handful of breeder there ( and surely none of the commercial phal breeders...). They just make many crosses, and some good things come out of that.

I bought a large batch of the WOC catasetinae, at wholesale price, many species, hybrids, etc... mericlone. I paid 1.5USD per plants, most of them in spike. All of them muted for sure.

Now, if a side effect of this is that Taiwanese, Timbuktians or Martians start mass-mericloning some good plants for the flower market, I accept that with a smile on my face! I know some people are 1000000000% against this, but I think it is a side effect of the current society, and it is silly to stop or fight again... The Orchids-hobby continues changing and either we adapt to it or we drop it... Professional growing is a different story, fully agree... and with mass mericloning, it is very difficult for "traditional" growers to compete..

however, there is and will always be a market for them as well, small one, as ithas been most of the time, as there will be people like most of us in this forum, who would rather buy a new bred plant or a division than a mass-mericloned one (However, I must admit that I also have some mass mericloned plant which are otherwise not easily available, e.g. Ctsm pileatum 'Oro Verde' and Fdk After Dark 'Black Pearl')... and last but not least, this is a current peak on the market, and will change when they offer a new "fashion" flower...

When Taiwan, and now Thailand, will have mericloned most of the current catasetinae plants available, and it is in progress, they got all the former plants from Fred Clarke through various channels, that will be the end of that group. Catasetinae are very easy to clone in huge quantities in fact ( the stock of the pileatum Oro Verde in Taiwan is of 11.000 blooming size plants, right now, at a dollar a plant).

Nurseries and breeders cannot survive on a handful of new crosses, or speculative breeding. They need the backbone of proven varieties to offer to their customers, yet they will not be able to because they are too available.

Most nurseries in Europe bred phalaenopsis, cattleya, and paphs, for the hobby market. With this, they could carry on speculative things, imports, different breeding, invest in high quality motherplants, albinos, whatever. When the phals, catt, and paphs days have been over, today those nurseries either starve to resell pot plant, or closed already. The do not carry any new breeding anymore. The same in the USA, who breeds cattleya and succeed to make money out of it? Even Hausermans, who can breed wonderful things, had to drop, and now buy all their plants from Taiwan, including the paphs.

The last thing to remember, when they will have cloned all Fred Clarke plants, obtained in a way or another, they will cross everything with everything, so whatever Fred Clarke wants to breed, they will already have done it, and in massive quantities at cheap price. That's the real problem. I have seen that with phals, they got all the motherplants possible around the world, made massive tissue culture, got many plant of each motherplant, and crossed each motherplant with ALL the other mother plant they got. Dozen of thousands of seed capsules at a point. Same with the paphs, each species with all the species.

 

[Fabrice]

So, it's probably a good thing that the paphiopedilums are very difficult to to mericlone...
Except for their price...
Xavier, with mericlone, your Mont Mllais will cost $20...

 

[Justin]

So, it's probably a good thing that the paphiopedilums are very difficult to to mericlone...
Except for their price...
Xavier, with mericlone, your Mont Mllais will cost $20...

It wouldn't ever be the "same" - the real division would still hold *some value.

 

[Candace]

THank you Peter.

It's a pity that Fred doesn't talk about the special conditions to bloom the catasetinae. We can suppose it's because it's very easy. But not for me.

I grow my FdK under light (MH400W), It has same light than my cattleya. Now, the plant have no leave. SO, I'm not very confident for a bloom. And I don't know if I continue to give water or not.
The catasetinae cultur is new for me.

2 pouces, it's really small for a first bloom.

Actually, if you've ever heard him do a talk, he's VERY specific about culture...