Ebay just look

[biothanasis]

LOL.....!!!!

Just a question! Aren't seeds products of plants? Why plants in different age stage are legal or illegal (seed=young plant embryo, seedling=young plant, plant=plant....plant...)? What does a plant mean? What are their products? Don't plants "produce" seeds? What kind of botanists made these laws/terms and why on earth should uncomprehensible laws be implemented??? And what do we protect the plants from?

Did anyone grow any plants from 0? Weren't all seeds obtained from the wild in the first place? Don't we live in the wild (perhaps a modified wild, anyway....). If so, isn't lineage & everything illegal then, according to Cites etc etc??? Then why do they continue propagating them?

Additionally, how can a phyto cert provide me with safety that no microorganisms / pests are evident? Who decides that?

And to come to the crucial point.... Isn't exchange of pathogens in between different parts of the world a biodiversity procedure? Why then should it be stopped if we are all eager to protect biodiversity? Who decides what?

(Well it is all in one question...hehehehehe...you can get my point...! )

Perhaps it is all to get money money money money money $$$$$$$$$ & protect our humane ego? Only one knows, I guess...!

Does anyone dissagree/agree?

(Sorry for the long thought, but it is this time of the year when thoughts about righteousness arise...lol...)

 

[s1214215]

Not all countries have the same silly rules. Australia for one requires no CITES permit or phyto permit for seed. I can legally import seed from anywhere that permits its export. As far as I know China has no laws prohibiting sending out seed and I have check on the matter.

The Cyp subtropicum seed was imported into Thailand legally under Thai law, then re-exported legally to the USA with a Thai phytosanitary permit naming the seed as Cyp subtropicum. USDA inspected it and passed it, and sent it to the person recieving it. My understanding is that makes it legal.

As for sending paph seed, I have no idea why USDA inspected the Paph vietnamense seed I sent to a friend, passed it and sent it on to him. It was sent with a Thai phyto and named as Paph. vietnamense. However, they did so. Back then I was not aware of the Lacey Act etc, or I may not have bothered.

 

[Eric Muehlbauer]

As far as I know, much of this discussion is moot. Cypripedium is not given the same tight restrictions by CITES that paphs and phrags get. That's why there are so many Chinese cyps sold openly. Cyps are not Appendix 1.

 

[Hakone]

As far as I know, much of this discussion is moot. Cypripedium is not given the same tight restrictions by CITES that paphs and phrags get. That's why there are so many Chinese cyps sold openly. Cyps are not Appendix 1.

that is to say Cyp does not need a CITES paper , and why say Dido this is not legally .

 

[Dido]

All orchids are under Cites.
If you look into the cites paper, you dont need paper in the EU but you need to prove where they come from.
But for sure Cyps need Cites paper if you want to import them into the US or Into Europe.
Only Hakone dont need them

 

[Hakone]

Hi Dido,

Why would you import cyps Into Europe. Cyps have been growing for 100 years in Europe.

All orchids are under Cites. Are you sure ?

 

[Dido]

Hybrids not
I would import Cyps like Rebunense, and I think you need Cites for that.

To Import Cyps from Canada years ago I needed Cites.

Ask the customs, they told me that.

I have Cites papers.

A friend imported japonicum and other kinds last year from Japan he had to do the paper work.

Perner had problems to bring his Cyps into germany last year, because he did not do a perfect paperwork
and german did not agree with the chinese Cites paper, they had to stay for weeks on the broder in the fridge, ask him he can tell you.
Most Cyps are very rare so why they should not need Cites.

 

[Hakone]

Hybrids not
I would import Cyps like Rebunense, and I think you need Cites for that.

To Import Cyps from Canada years ago I needed Cites.

Ask the customs, they told me that.

What is Rebunense? Is Rebunense a macranthos? Since when does a macranthos Cites?. Macranthos is imported for long time to Europe .

You can buy almost all CYPs here in europe, why import more?

 

[Dido]

If customs comes to you, you have to prove where your plants from, and for me its better to have cites for them.
And I know from my plants where they come from.
And I dont tell breaders, sorry your seedlings are to expensive I buy Cheaper wild collected plants and they bloom fast.

I buy plants from grower who have told me they are breaded, or been in cultivation for long years and clones from them.

The last years some cyps was imported from US, like passerinum or do you think P did grow them himself. Then arientum is still not realy to buy, and there was imports the last years from canada.
For me it is the Rebunense, that you dont belive in this kinds we dicussed in another thread and again if you think different I am happy with that, but you need a license to get them into europe. I and a friend we imported some Cymbidiums from Japan and needed cites.
I know you dont belive in that and you love to import wild collected plants, but I try to stay on the side of the law, and only try to buy from sellers who have raised them and proved that there plants are not from the wild. I have get plants too and tryed to keep them alive and sometimes I was succesfull.

It doesent matter fro me if they are rare or not. But I dont like collecting them from the wild.

And here in europe on eBay and on others siedes there are a lot of illegal plants for sale. I dont want to get them, so I try to buy from people I trust.
But not always this will help. So more and more true kinds I try to raise from seed.

 

[Hakone]

If customs comes to you, you have to prove where your plants from, and for me its better to have cites for them.
And I know from my plants where they come from.
And I dont tell breaders, sorry your seedlings are to expensive I buy Cheaper wild collected plants and they bloom fast.

I buy plants from grower who have told me they are breaded, or been in cultivation for long years and clones from them.

The last years some cyps was imported from US, like passerinum or do you think P did grow them himself. Then arientum is still not realy to buy, and there was imports the last years from canada.
For me it is the Rebunense, that you dont belive in this kinds we dicussed in another thread and again if you think different I am happy with that, but you need a license to get them into europe. I and a friend we imported some Cymbidiums from Japan and needed cites.
I know you dont belive in that and you love to import wild collected plants, but I try to stay on the side of the law, and only try to buy from sellers who have raised them and proved that there plants are not from the wild. I have get plants too and tryed to keep them alive and sometimes I was succesfull.

It doesent matter fro me if they are rare or not. But I dont like collecting them from the wild.

And here in europe on eBay and on others siedes there are a lot of illegal plants for sale. I dont want to get them, so I try to buy from people I trust.
But not always this will help. So more and more true kinds I try to raise from seed.

All your arguments are purely assumption:

- passerinum and arientum can you by in Europe without Cites

 

[Dido]

You dont need Cites by dealing inside in Europe.

Why you dont understand the different.

But they were imported to Europe with Cites.

 

[Hakone]

You dont need Cites by dealing inside in Europe.

Why you dont understand the different.

But they were imported to Europe with Cites.

I repeat again, that we not need any import, they are growing already HERE

 

[Hakone]

I open your eyes. look:

Albiflora.be - Cypripedium

 

[Berthold]

I repeat again, that we not need any import, they are growing already HERE

I guess You are speaking about passerinum and arietinum seedlings from Crustacare, do You?

 

[Hakone]

you are intelligent, for long time has Crustacare bardolphianum, fargesii , margaritaceum, debiles, lichiangense, plectrochilon, .. etc. ..in program.

Question: has crustacare Cites . Dido, do you understand . All these plants had come to Europe before CITES Convention.

Berthold and Dido, do you have an argument .

" wenn du weiß, sagst . Wenn du nicht weiß , hälst die Klappe bitte "

" if you know , you can say. If you do not know , keep your mouth please "

 

[Berthold]

I guess You are speaking about passerinum and arietinum seedlings from Crustacare, do You?

Hakone what is Your answer? Are You mixing up some things again?

 

[Hakone]

Hakone what is Your answer? Are You mixing up some things again?

I'm afraid , that Dido not understand. I answered your question in general for him, naturally passerinum and arietinum are incl.

 

[Kavanaru]

just my two cents for the discussion... calceolus grows naturaly in Europe (and of course even centuries before CITES convention!)... but if I want to bring a plant from Switzerland (also grows naturally there, but this country is not part of the EU!) I need CITES and Phyto certificate... simple as that...

 

[Berthold]

I answered your question in general for him, naturally passerinum and arietinum are incl.

No, I don't think so. I don't know anything about availability of adult Cypripedium passerinum and arietinum in Germany.

Both species are very difficult in cultivation in Germany for special reasons. Passerinum is a little bit easier than arietinum.

 

[Eric Muehlbauer]

To make it clear to all outside Europe...All orchids are under CITES, but cyps are not under CITES 1, the most restrictive category. CITES 1 includes all paphs and phrags, and some others, like Vanda coerulea.