Cypripedium acaule info

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kentuckiense

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JB_Orchidguy said:
kentuckiense You are correct I wanted a cheap and quick way to get some cyps,
Ok, glad we got that out the way in the beginning.

JB_Orchidguy said:
but with every acquisition from friends you act as a backup plan should something happen. Regardless of what was the motive in the beginning there is always that backup plan for the future.
Quite frankly, you're full of it. You know the original plan wasn't for you to act as some sort of safety deposit box. Quit trying to portray yourself as some sort of philanthropist.

JB_Orchidguy said:
Now I am sorry that some folks do not like the fact that these were wild collected plants. The fact is though that every orchid you or anyone else owns once had to be gathered from the wild at one point in time. Prior to the knowledge of how to lab propagate.
Honestly, is that your best argument? I just bought 3 Phragmipedium fischeri from Matt Gore. Obviously, the great grandparents of these were probably nestled in the Ecuadoran mountains. However, I'd like to point out the differences between your case and mine. By purchasing from a reputable nursery that practices asymbiotic propogation, I am helping the conservation efforts of the species. No individuals were ripped from the wild as a result of my purchase, and the money from my purchase helps Gore Orchid Conservatory keep on doing what they do. In your case, you are DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE for the removal of wild plants. In addition, you are only encouraging such actions. I'd also like to point out that you didn't even bother to research the cultivation of this species until AFTER the trade was finalized.


JB_Orchidguy said:
The market still keeps the prices of these guys high and so that resulting high prices requires that I go through some other means to acquire plants. Now had they been wild collected from land other than the owners land or the collection had wiped out a stand then I wouldn't have done it.
The market price is high? Thirty-five dollars at Vermont Ladyslipper Company. Sure, they are out of stock. To a responsible cultivator with the wellbeing of the species in mind, that means "I'll just wait until the next batch is ready." It simply sounds like you refuse to pay the price for responsible orchid cultivation.

JB_Orchidguy said:
Also I do not believe there is anything unethical about the aquasition I just made. Had they been on governemt property or someone elses land with out permision to gather or wiping out an entire stand thats different, but none of those were the case.
Ok, then tell me how many individuals you would collect? Would you collect half? Would you collect a quarter? What's your arbitrary number? After all, we don't want to "wipe out an entire stand."

JB_Orchidguy said:
Different views and ways of thinking I guess.
You're right. I guess it just comes down to your mentality of "I do what I want."

Josh, I tried to be nice in the beginning. I tried to push you in the direction of artificially propogated plants and yet you still imply that you have every intention of just going for the cheap and easy solution in the future. Never the less, I do hope your plants will do well. Good luck.

Eric Muehlbauer said:
In all fairness, C. acaule was probably the last cyp to be successfully grown from seed under lab conditions....for years, growers were finding them easy to germinate and grow through the first flasking, but that was the end of the line. Only recently have growers had success in raisng them to marketable size, and they are expensive. ....I'm not even sure if they can be successfully grown in the long run, in an outdoor, in ground environment (not pot culture)...they haven't been around long enough.At the same time, acaule is the most common cyp in the US, occurring in larger quantities over a wider area than parviflorum or reginae. And again, as I said before, all they need is the right soil to thrive. I have found healthy acaules growing right by the Long Island Expressway....and can withstand responsible collecting.The main objection to collecting acaule is when irresponsible dealers claim that they are "easy" plants, like that guy on Ebay....most dealers who sell acaule stress that these plants are very demanding and are not for average growers. I guarantee that acaule will never become a hot in demand garden plant...and that is, in many respects, its best guarantee of protection from overcollecting.Take care, Eric
I certainly understand what you are saying, and I really don't disagree with most of it. However, I'm simply of the mentality that if a native orchid is happy in its native habitat, then just let it be. Go hike out to it on a nice saturday afternoon. I'm certainly for the rescue of native orchids that are in danger. When I can, I help out a local group that does just that. I'm just tired of the mentality that we SHOULD just do what we want because we CAN do it, especially when there are more ethical alternatives.

One of the largest colonies of Cypripedium acaule in the area(if not the state) is just a few miles from where I'm sitting. Several years ago, the plants reportedly numbered over 1,000. At least half were then poached. No doubt, that poaching continued for several years. I went out to the site this spring and could barely count 25 or 30 plants. Take that for whatever it's worth, I guess.
 

kentuckiense

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As pointed out to me to another member, I have a Mexipedium xerophyticum and Phragmipedium besseae that can trace their division history back to wild plants. Both 1988, I believe. However, I am of the opinion that my acquisition of both didn't result in or encourage further collection.
 

Heather

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I think a lot of this comes down to how you, as a grower, justify and condone wild collection of plants.

Is it okay to trade say, a kovachii if you have extra on your property for a besseae of your neighbors?

Is it okay to collected and sell 1000 kovachiis on your property and wipe out the habitat completely just to make a buck? How about on someone else's property?

Is it okay to collect 1000 boisserianum and sell them as kovachii just to make a buck?

Is it okay to save 10 kovachii from a site being clearcut or bulldozed and move them to a lab where they can be artificially propogated?

Is it okay to import and grow wild collected plants with no intent to re-sell, breed or distribute? just to grow and enjoy the plant?


I'm using kovachii as an example because it is fresh in everyone's mind, but I think it can be just as easily applied to any native plant in demand.
 

kentuckiense

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Josh, what it comes down to is this: in the future, if you wish to continue native orchid cultivation, please make every possible effort to get lab propogated plants. I would greatly appreciate it. There's really not much more I can say.
 
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JB_Orchidguy

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Thank you for the information. I'm done with the argueing. You insult me by telling me I am pulling statements out of my ass. Dude you have no clue about me as this is just the first time interacting with me. I don't have the luxury of going to the plants to see them. There are NONE in my area, and I do not have knowledge of any stands. Regardless of what you may think, every plant I own that came from someone else is a chance for them to recieve it back should something happen to thier plants. This goes for my sarracenia and any other plant I have. A few of my sarracenia are more endangered than the cyps are in the wild. I recieved them as devision from plants collected from the wild orriginaly, some rescues some not. I also have a seed grown S. oreophila and recieving another soon.

The story you have of 1000 cyps turning into 25 to 30 plants. Thats wrong. No doubt about it. Those plants were illegaly collected. Although I have nothing to do with that stand shrinking. Maybe if there were more plants available in the market then the need for poaching would decrease. There is a difference in controlled collection of privately held stands then illegal poaching of unowned property.

Granted there may have been other ways to acuire these plants, but I chose to go this rought. With other species I can't aquire in a trade then I will buy from some place that lab propigates. Now if I know the plants are illegaly collected from private or government lands I would not finalize the trade. I have just one regret, and that is letting people know they were wild collected since it just brings brow beating from some indeviduals. I also get compaired to the poachers who take plants from goverment lands or private property without permision.

I am also not going to reseach something till the need arises for me to research it. I started researching as soon as the offer for the trade was made to me. The gentleman knew I wanted Cyps, and I had items he wanted. So the trade was offered. I started doing research for the plants as soon as the i hour conversation over the trade ended so when they arrived I could do what I needed to do for them. The fact that I started research for the plants as soon as the trade was offered is irrelavent.

I think a lot of this comes down to how you, as a grower, justify and condone wild collection of plants.
Yes it is. Since I believe everything is not black and white.

Is it okay to trade say, a kovachii if you have extra on your property for a besseae of your neighbors?
Yes its your land and plants it would be the same as tradeing fot a plant you have potted up.

Is it okay to collected and sell 1000 kovachiis on your property and wipe out the habitat completely just to make a buck? How about on someone else's property?
Well if you want to destroy the habitat on your property that your business. I wouldn't do it. I wouldn't wipe out a population on someone elses property either. If tye do it thats there business.

Is it okay to collect 1000 boisserianum and sell them as kovachii just to make a buck?
Now that is just fraud.

Is it okay to save 10 kovachii from a site being clearcut or bulldozed and move them to a lab where they can be artificially propogated?
Yes that the ideal method of propigation.

Is it okay to import and grow wild collected plants with no intent to re-sell, breed or distribute? just to grow and enjoy the plant?
No. since many of those wild collected plants were collected without permision. See I do have plans to one day be in the position to resell plants I have aquired thoguh my growing. I plan to breed plants and make hybreds. I don't plan on going into debt to do it so its going to be slow, but I will have an orchid/carnivorous plant nursery one day.

I'm using kovachii as an example because it is fresh in everyone's mind, but I think it can be just as easily applied to any native plant in demand.
kovachii also had to be taken from the wild so it could be lab propigated. People had to learn how to grow it and then it needs to be refined so that it can be grown a little more compactly.

I duno what else to say. The plants are already collected.

I will look for lab plants in the future, but regardless privately owned plant be them potted or be them in the ground will still be traded. Still regardless of what you think I am for conservation of orchids and CPs.
 

silence882

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My turn my turn!

It is not inherently unethical to havest a wild-growing orchid. Cyp acaule is uncommon, but not rare and certainly nowhere near endangered. It is not poor stewardship to harvest a few plants from a large colony on private property. In fact, I would argue that restricting reasonable harvestation (i.e. not injuring a colony) is far more dangerous to the survival of a species. A colony can be reduced then allowed to rejuvinate. When that's done, you haven't hurt the colony and there are more plants in cultivation.

This isn't rural Vietnam where paph colonies are stripped and those that aren't sold in the local market are fed to the pigs. The slippery-slope argument doesn't apply.

Also, has everyone in the world but me seen wild cyp acaule?

--Stephen

p.s. As far as I know, xerophyticum has been found in only one location in Oaxaca, Mexico. It has been visited only twice, both times by scientific expeditions and entire plants were never collected. Divisions of 7 plants were collected and two of those ('Oaxaca' and 'Windy Hill') are the source of every plant in cultivation. No way in Hell this contributed to the demise of a species...
 
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PHRAG

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I was going to respond a page ago, but then got distracted, and now I am too tired to type what I was going to type.

Josh is right about some things.
Zach is right about some things.
Stephen is right about some things.

Heather, ummmm. Heather is just wrong. :rollhappy:

It is a complicated world we live in. I blame everything evil on Bush. It gets me through the day.
 

kentuckiense

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silence882 said:
My turn my turn!

It is not inherently unethical to havest a wild-growing orchid. Cyp acaule is uncommon, but not rare and certainly nowhere near endangered. It is not poor stewardship to harvest a few plants from a large colony on private property. In fact, I would argue that restricting reasonable harvestation (i.e. not injuring a colony) is far more dangerous to the survival of a species. A colony can be reduced then allowed to rejuvinate. When that's done, you haven't hurt the colony and there are more plants in cultivation.

This isn't rural Vietnam where paph colonies are stripped and those that aren't sold in the local market are fed to the pigs. The slippery-slope argument doesn't apply.

Also, has everyone in the world but me seen wild cyp acaule?

--Stephen

p.s. As far as I know, xerophyticum has been found in only one location in Oaxaca, Mexico. It has been visited only twice, both times by scientific expeditions and entire plants were never collected. Divisions of 7 plants were collected and two of those ('Oaxaca' and 'Windy Hill') are the source of every plant in cultivation. No way in Hell this contributed to the demise of a species...
You know I respect you and your opinion very much. However, I'm not totally sure about your 'rejunivation' hypothesis. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't that decrease the gene pool of the colony? Obviously, that doesn't really happen in cases of minor collection.

I have a question about Mexipedium xerophyticum though. What is the 'Fairy Slippers' clone awarded in 2000? Is that just a cross between 'Oaxaca' and 'Windy Hill?'

And I suppose it's time that I accept my place in Slippertalk.com history as "that over-obsessive native orchids guy."
 

silence882

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PHRAG said:
I was going to respond a page ago, but then got distracted, and now I am too tired to type what I was going to type.

Josh is right about some things.
Zach is right about some things.
Stephen is right about all things.

Heather, ummmm. Heather is just wrong. :rollhappy:

It is a complicated world we live in. I blame everything evil on Bush. It gets me through the day.
I corrected your post so everyone would be clear :D

--Stephen
 
J

JB_Orchidguy

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Sorry to set such hard feelings in motion, and I hope they have passed. i am not trying to alienate myself. I hope to still be able to fit into this community and be a valuable part of it.
 
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PHRAG

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JB_Orchidguy said:
Sorry to set such hard feelings in motion, and I hope they have passed. i am not trying to alienate myself. I hope to still be able to fit into this community and be a valuable part of it.
You are welcome here. You haven't even begun to do half the stuff some of us have. I am the king of the message board idiots.
 

kentuckiense

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JB_Orchidguy said:
Sorry to set such hard feelings in motion, and I hope they have passed. i am not trying to alienate myself. I hope to still be able to fit into this community and be a valuable part of it.
I should apologize too. I get wound up sometimes.

I love you.

I want to be with you.
 

silence882

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Good question! I know nothing about population genetics, and therefore I know nothing about how it applies to colonial species. Sounds like a fascinating topic, though. However, imagine a deer eating two of the plants and causing enough damage to kill them. How is that different from collecting a few?

I can't say for sure but I strongly suspect that 'Fairy Slippers' is a result of Marilyn Ledoux's xerophyticum breeding using one or both of the original clones. She would be the woman to ask: ledoux@usmo.com

Fanaticism must be tempered by reason! Otherwise things get screwed up.

--Stephen

kentuckiense said:
You know I respect you and your opinion very much. However, I'm not totally sure about your 'rejunivation' hypothesis. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't that decrease the gene pool of the colony? Obviously, that doesn't really happen in cases of minor collection.

I have a question about Mexipedium xerophyticum though. What is the 'Fairy Slippers' clone awarded in 2000? Is that just a cross between 'Oaxaca' and 'Windy Hill?'

And I suppose it's time that I accept my place in Slippertalk.com history as "that over-obsessive native orchids guy."
 
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