Basket culture update 1 year 8 months later

[ChrisFL]

Here's a barbata to cover another subgenera. This one has done great as have most of the barbata types. But I do have some stall or show stress, and find that sometimes the roots are poor. So I pull out the old moss and increase the percentage of gravel when I do so.

This may be the clincher.

I checked water chemistry of water I was able to squeeze out of old (1+ year) and new (2 day) moss. And for comparison I have the chemistry of my basic irrigation water.

Irrigation water pH = 7.43, conductivity = 65, hardness = 28, alkalinity = 32
New moss pH = 5.68, conductivity = 299, hardness = 19.2, alkalinity = 22
old moss pH = 7.33, conductivity = 1800!!, hardness = 419!!, alkalinity = 190

With a hardness of 400 and a conductivity of 1800 there must be additional accumulation of potassium and sodium salts to get the conductivity that high. My full strength well water has a hardness of around 400 with a conductivity of 650 to 800. Most of the TDS is from calcium sulfate with the balance calcium and magnesium carbonates. Only 3 mg/L of sodium and potassium was nondetect. So to pick up more than 1000 useimens of conductivity there must be a bunch of monovalent cation in there somewhere.

Contrary to convention, the acidity is not going up with age, but the amount of sequestered salts is pretty amazing. Maybe one of the scary things is that if the moss is sequestering basic salts, its probably sequestering the trace metals to toxic levels too.

A commonality of the plants that are doing good vs the not so good, is the roots coming out of the moss and fully exposed. At that point they can access low salt low micronutrient water I guess.

Sorry if this has been covered already Rick, but your it appears you're actually sequestering alkalinity/buffer. An alkalinity of 22 to 190 is a HUGE change and denotes sequestration/retention/presence of proton up-taking ions. But, obviously, these need counter ions, and without a trace metal analysis, we can't know what they are, but you can make an assumption that they are whatever is in the fertilizer.

 

[eaborne]

Rick,
I would like to try to pot a few phrags and paphs in the baskets. What mix do I put in the basket? Do you line it first with sphagnum, then put a mix in the middle? I have many media here to try and was wondering what you suggest. I have diatomite, PrimeAgra clay pellets, orchiata, sponge rock, charcoal, live moss, and sphagnum moss. I can only water every few days though. What do you recommend I try? Thanks for the advice.

 

[billc]

I think live moss will actually be superior, and whereever it grows the plants apear better. There seems to be a good correlation between the presence of live mosses and when the roots are breaking outside of the baskets. It could be that the live moss is a good indicator of good substrate/water chemistry that is compatible with good root growth. So I always try to seed some live moss with every pot and basket. It's a trend, but not a rule that when the live moss is doing good so are the orchid roots.

I don't know the chemistry behind it but I find that my plants that somehow have live moss thriving on the top in the media are always more robust than the plant right next to them. It's especially evident in masdies. Anytime I see a well grown masdie, the live moss is thriving. I think you're onto something Rick.

Bill

 

[eaborne]

I don't know the chemistry behind it but I find that my plants that somehow have live moss thriving on the top in the media are always more robust than the plant right next to them. It's especially evident in masdies. Anytime I see a well grown masdie, the live moss is thriving. I think you're onto something Rick.

Bill

Don't you have to keep the media wet at all times for the moss to grow? If I don't, then the moss dies. I have a two phrags with moss growing on the top of the medium, but they stay wet and are definately not thriving. The wetter I keep things, the more they suffer and get rot.

 

[billc]

The humidity may have something to do with it, I try to keep it at 65-75 in my basement tent area.The humidifier runs for 15 minutes every hour and a quarter and when it's on the RH gets up to 85-90. I went down and looked and the plants I have in CHC have more moss than the ones I've repotted this year into Orciata. Some ot the plants in S/H have some moss but they get watered more frequently.

Bill

 

[Rick]

You might want to jump over to the thread I started on TDS/conductivity measurement in the potting mix.

Salt accumulation in whatever media looks to be a good correlation to the moss growth. So the live moss may be an indicator rather than providing anything special to the plants.

 

[SlipperKing]

I had a chance to see Rick's culture techniques first hand last Friday evening and it was impressive. What I came away with and Rick has already touched on is live moss equals healthy plants. How can that be achieved one asks? Seedling local mosses from your own area appears to work well. I've seen several different species of moss accomplish the same end results, healthy slippers. Now, a secondary question; how to grow the moss? From what Rick demonstrated with his conductivity meter and what has become clear to me is flush, flush and then flush more! I'm at the mind set now to water with straight rain water 3, 4 or more times then fertilize weakly, 50-60 ppm then repeat the flushing.
We finished the night off with a great steak dinner for his BIRTHDAY(!)at one of his local eateries. Then he guided me out of the thickets of Tennessee back to civilization to continue my journey back to Pearland, Texas.

 

[keithrs]

I will say that I have not flushed with plain water more than 6 or so times since starting k-lite(in fact I almost out) and I have no problem growing moss in pots or on mounts.

 

[eaborne]

I had a chance to see Rick's culture techniques first hand last Friday evening and it was impressive. What I came away with and Rick has already touched on is live moss equals healthy plants.

I bet that was a great learing experience! Sounds like your trip went well!

 

[Rick]

I will say that I have not flushed with plain water more than 6 or so times since starting k-lite(in fact I almost out) and I have no problem growing moss in pots or on mounts.

That's actually a higher rate of flushing than me (by quite a bit too!!!). Plus the use of a low K fert has essentially increased the total amount of salt that can go into a system without it becoming toxic.

Plants (and mosses) can handle much higher concentrations of divalent cations than monovalents.

But without the use of a TDS meter its hard to gauge how much flushing is needed to keep a stable low TDS safe for your plants. Moss on mounts and in pots may be a faster/better indicator (the "canary in a coal mine") once you find that good balance of feeding vs flushing.

Mounts (by lack of substrate) don't accumulate much salt in comparison to pots, so I've rarely had problems with mounted plants. But most of us rarely keep Paphs and Phrags mounted so the salt concentration issues/moss growth are really more of a pot/basket problem.

 

[Rick]

Rick,
I would like to try to pot a few phrags and paphs in the baskets. What mix do I put in the basket? Do you line it first with sphagnum, then put a mix in the middle? I have many media here to try and was wondering what you suggest. I have diatomite, PrimeAgra clay pellets, orchiata, sponge rock, charcoal, live moss, and sphagnum moss. I can only water every few days though. What do you recommend I try? Thanks for the advice.

I tried a lot of things at first, but its coming closer to:

Moss lined followd by a mix of 75% large driveway limestone gravel, 20% more moss, 5% mix of sand and "Cichlid Sand". Live moss is great addition if you have it.

Many of the baskets with clay pellet or ball type media didn't work out too well. As it turned out the clay balls concentrate salts the way I water/feed.

I have a few baskets where I replaced some of the salty moss with bark or CHC mix, but I upped the amount of limestone gravel too.

 

[Jim Toomey]

Hi Rick!
Dimensions of the large driveway limestone gravel?
Thanks,
Jim T

 

[Stone]

The trouble with gravel is that its not a good mixer with moss. ie; its weight will tend to settle it (the moss) over a short time thereby compacting the mix and reducing air-filled porosity and all the negatives that go along with that.
I found its better to stick with similar density or weighted materials when making up a mix so you can increase its life.
For me things like moss, granulated polystyrene, t/fern, leaf mold and chc work well together without too much compaction.
Whereas stones, bark, gravel, leca, charcoal also combine and you can tweek it with a few strands of moss here and there.
Although charcoal and polystyrene work with anything.
Rick, have you tried moss + polystyrene? though you need to water more (which could be a good thing)

 

[Rick]

Hi Rick!
Dimensions of the large driveway limestone gravel?
Thanks,
Jim T

about 1 inch diameter. It's very large and angular so there are large spaces for air/moss/roots/sand to accumulate. It doesn't compact.

I don't think it contributes much to chemistry, and its certainly too dense to hold up any water or salts on its own.

 

[Rick]

The trouble with gravel is that its not a good mixer with moss. ie; its weight will tend to settle it (the moss) over a short time thereby compacting the mix and reducing air-filled porosity and all the negatives that go along with that.
I found its better to stick with similar density or weighted materials when making up a mix so you can increase its life.
For me things like moss, granulated polystyrene, t/fern, leaf mold and chc work well together without too much compaction.
Whereas stones, bark, gravel, leca, charcoal also combine and you can tweek it with a few strands of moss here and there.
Although charcoal and polystyrene work with anything.
Rick, have you tried moss + polystyrene? though you need to water more (which could be a good thing)

Would all be true Mike if the particle size was fairly small. Maybe on the order of 5mm or less. But this gravel is big (~25mm) and angular so it doesn't shift and settle when watering.

I've used polystyrene peanuts under bark mixes (primarily for Catts). It really is just about the same as big shards of busted up clay pot. Lots of drainage and air. But the rock is very dense and non absorbent. I'm finding the plants really don't need that much water retentive mix around their roots. Especially if it sponges up a lot of excess fertilizer.

 

[Stone]

Ok,.... I look at gravel as being less than around 5mm.

 

[SlipperFan]

about 1 inch diameter. It's very large and angular so there are large spaces for air/moss/roots/sand to accumulate. It doesn't compact. ...

Where do you get limestone gravel that large???

 

[Rick]

Where do you get limestone gravel that large???

From my drivewayoke:oke:

Middle TN is nothing but a big limestone quarry. There's at least 2 within 10 miles of my house. Between the road beds, concrete manufacture, driving ways....its everywhere. I recently had a truckload dump a new load for my driveway, so when I need a handful for a few pots I just go out front and take it out of the driveway.

 

[keithrs]

Granite works as well.... Well, Maybe not as well....

I would recommend buying washed rock of what ever kind....

 

[keithrs]

I'm curious why you have not tried larger baskets? How are you going to treat the baskets you have now when the plants out grow the baskets?

How do you think paphs like armeniacum or godefroyae would grow in plain limestone? Maybe with a small top dressing of seedling bark.