vietnamense

[dodidoki]

A creepy one...View attachment IMG_20230510_133039.jpg

 

[Roth]

A creepy one...View attachment 40349

Not quite, those are hybrids of HCM that were mass produced in Germany and sold as Vietnamense, with or without flamboyant pedigree appended, Someone else on the forum sent me private a photo of the same batch, with a lot of red in the staminode, and a very deformed flower too.

The plants cannot be distingushed from a real vietnamense, only when they bloom, a lot will be like yours or like the others I got in PM...

On another side, some bloomed out of that batch with a 'perfect' shape and color, and were selected as top quality 'vietnamense'.

It is an epidemic since some years to get properly identified plants, apparently it becomes a new unfortunate trend.

Paph. Vo Nguyen Giap ( and of course they are around for a while, already sibbed, and backcrossed with vietnamense, of course...):

https://www.orchidroots.com/detail/information/?pid=100961798&role=
Note that the leaves can not be told apart from a pure vietnamense. If someone wonders why there are only 1-2 photos of that hybrid, and nearly not a single plant offered on the market it is simple. They have a much higher tag price as vietnamense....

 

[dodidoki]

Thank you, it was suspicious to me, too. And this one?

 

[McPeg]

I'm going to be brave and post my first pics since I've been lurking in the background--learning, for the last year. I have one pic of my Paph Ho Chi Minh with two flowers in 2022 (first blooming year) and two pics of the flowers this year--one the first bloom to open and then both blooms open with the first open starting its way out. Last year I had a third bloom but it doesn't look like I will get the same this year. I'm anxious to see what you all have to say--be nice, I'm nervous!

 

[Happypaphy7]

Thank you, it was suspicious to me, too. And this one?View attachment 40351

You can't just look at something like this and say it is or it is not a species. It just looks too much like the species itself. No way to tell them apart on this level.

 

[Happypaphy7]

I'm going to be brave and post my first pics since I've been lurking in the background--learning, for the last year. I have one pic of my Paph Ho Chi Minh with two flowers in 2022 (first blooming year) and two pics of the flowers this year--one the first bloom to open and then both blooms open with the first open starting its way out. Last year I had a third bloom but it doesn't look like I will get the same this year. I'm anxious to see what you all have to say--be nice, I'm nervous!

Well, that is typical of Ho Chi Minh and you bought it labelled as such. So, there are no issues with its ID if that's what you are asking?

 

[dodidoki]

You can't just look at something like this and say it is or it is not a species. It just looks too much like the species itself. No way to tell them apart on this level.

I have four viet from 4 different sources. One- from Popow- turned to be Ho Shi Minh with reddish staminode.The creepy one is from Cramer, last one is from Elite( Mark Turner) and I have one, not bloomed yet, from Schwerter.

 

[DrLeslieEe]

I'm going to be brave and post my first pics since I've been lurking in the background--learning, for the last year. I have one pic of my Paph Ho Chi Minh with two flowers in 2022 (first blooming year) and two pics of the flowers this year--one the first bloom to open and then both blooms open with the first open starting its way out. Last year I had a third bloom but it doesn't look like I will get the same this year. I'm anxious to see what you all have to say--be nice, I'm nervous!

Nicely bloom McPeg! It is a beautiful HCM!

 

[DrLeslieEe]

You can't just look at something like this and say it is or it is not a species. It just looks too much like the species itself. No way to tell them apart on this level.

To me both of Istvan’s fit on the vietnamense spectrum with the right staminode. The variability of the petals and sepals is normal from a seedling batch.

 

[Roth]

To me both of Istvan’s fit on the vietnamense spectrum with the right staminode. The variability of the petals and sepals is normal from a seedling batch.

That's the problem... the staminode is not important anymore at all, in the hybrid batch in Germany, there were mixed pink and no pink staminode.

When you see the batch, there were FCC caliber 'vietnamense', some posted on Facebook right after, along with the pink staminode ones, and a lot of deformed ones too. What was surprising in the batch was the high percentage of plants with very, very ugly shape as well. As it is one batch from one capsule, everything is hybrid.

 

[Roth]

I have four viet from 4 different sources. One- from Popow- turned to be Ho Shi Minh with reddish staminode.The creepy one is from Cramer, last one is from Elite( Mark Turner) and I have one, not bloomed yet, from Schwerter.

If we count Mark plant as 1 source, the total sources are 2.

Schwerter sells directly to hobbyists, but their main business is wholesale, and I would say 3/4 of the EU market in seed grown paphs come from them.

After that, the names can differ, some will sell 'Dark' x self, some will sell '18.5cm x crimson' etc... This part depends on the space left when printing the tags... Sometimes the plants are quickly repotted, sometimes not even. But Schwerter sells everything as generic species, no pedigree or whatsoever, so they are clear on that. What they customer do with the tags is not their reponsibility at all, truly...

 

[McPeg]

Well, that is typical of Ho Chi Minh and you bought it labelled as such. So, there are no issues with its ID if that's what you are asking?

No question....I was just being brave enough to post for the first time.

 

[dodidoki]

To me both of Istvan’s fit on the vietnamense spectrum with the right staminode. The variability of the petals and sepals is normal from a seedling batch.

I think so.Xavier saw many plant and has experience in trade so i belive him. But I saw many pics and plants too and i think these plants of mine is vietnamense. I have another so called selected viet, but as Xavier mentioned it is HoChi Minh, flower is big, nice, shape is correct but staminode is red....I think this feature is so dominant for delenatii that this can bee seen on every HCM.

 

[Roth]

I think so.Xavier saw many plant and has experience in trade so i belive him. But I saw many pics and plants too and i think these plants of mine is vietnamense. I have another so called selected viet, but as Xavier mentioned it is HoChi Minh, flower is big, nice, shape is correct but staminode is red....I think this feature is so dominant for delenatii that this can bee seen on every HCM.

That's the problem, in F2 generation HCM crosses, especially backcross to Vietnamense and further, you have only a part of the seedlings that have the pink on the staminode, some heavily, some faintly, and some not at all...

The only way so far is to see a batch from the same parents in bloom, and check somehow for variation...