kentuckiense
Debaser
I just saw a picture and fell in love. Hard. :smitten:
I don't even know if they are available in the U.S. yet. Have any insight, anyone?
I don't even know if they are available in the U.S. yet. Have any insight, anyone?
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vietnamense x malipoense
- Thread starter kentuckiense
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SlipperFan
Addicted
I read in Orchids magazine that vietnamense is now legal in the US, but keep a paper trail...kentuckiense said:
kentuckiense
Debaser
Exactly, so shouldn't vietnamense x malipoense be legal, too? I was under the impression that hybrids are always legal, but apparently I was mistaken.SlipperFan said:
G
gore42
Guest
Well, there are a couple of issues here.
First, Paph vietnamense is now legal in the US, from some sources. Vietnam still doesn't allow the export of these, so you have to buy them from the legal stock in the USA. Antec got a few of the plants (as a rescue center, according to the rumors I've heard... USFW seized some illegal plants and Vietnam didn't want them back, so they were sent to Antec) and sold the flasks, and now those seedlings are for sale around the country. Glen Decker also told me that he got some legal seed from USFW, so his vietnamense are legal, but perhaps from a different source.
Anyway, there have been blooming size vietnamense in the US for long enough that there should be several hybrids legally available. I know that Paph Ho Chi Mihn (delenatii x vietnamense) is pretty common... they were flasked and sold by Antec. I'm sure that others have made plenty of hybrids, too, and the one in question is probably among them.
So, MOST hybrids are legal, but only if the parent plants are legal. This is the big issue with the Paph hangianum hybrids that are so popular in Taiwan at the moment; they are still illegal in the USA because Vietnam still hasn't allowed any hangianum to be exported. In the USA, the Lacey Act is enforced such that all of the progeny of illegal plants are also illegal, thus, even artificially propagated Taiwanese hangianum hybrids are illegal because the parents were necessarily illegal.
This also means that if you were to import a flask of vietnamense x malipoense, it would also be illegal, technically speaking (unless the exporter can prove that their parent plants were legal through some circumstances similar to Antec's). Practically speaking, though, nobody will probably care about vietnamense parentage in a hybrid anymore, since they are so common in the US.
So. I don't know if that helps clear anything up, and also, I'm not a lawyer
That's just my understanding of a confusing system.
- Matthew
First, Paph vietnamense is now legal in the US, from some sources. Vietnam still doesn't allow the export of these, so you have to buy them from the legal stock in the USA. Antec got a few of the plants (as a rescue center, according to the rumors I've heard... USFW seized some illegal plants and Vietnam didn't want them back, so they were sent to Antec) and sold the flasks, and now those seedlings are for sale around the country. Glen Decker also told me that he got some legal seed from USFW, so his vietnamense are legal, but perhaps from a different source.
Anyway, there have been blooming size vietnamense in the US for long enough that there should be several hybrids legally available. I know that Paph Ho Chi Mihn (delenatii x vietnamense) is pretty common... they were flasked and sold by Antec. I'm sure that others have made plenty of hybrids, too, and the one in question is probably among them.
So, MOST hybrids are legal, but only if the parent plants are legal. This is the big issue with the Paph hangianum hybrids that are so popular in Taiwan at the moment; they are still illegal in the USA because Vietnam still hasn't allowed any hangianum to be exported. In the USA, the Lacey Act is enforced such that all of the progeny of illegal plants are also illegal, thus, even artificially propagated Taiwanese hangianum hybrids are illegal because the parents were necessarily illegal.
This also means that if you were to import a flask of vietnamense x malipoense, it would also be illegal, technically speaking (unless the exporter can prove that their parent plants were legal through some circumstances similar to Antec's). Practically speaking, though, nobody will probably care about vietnamense parentage in a hybrid anymore, since they are so common in the US.
So. I don't know if that helps clear anything up, and also, I'm not a lawyer
That's just my understanding of a confusing system.- Matthew
kentuckiense
Debaser
Matt, you spelled it out perfectly, thanks. It looks like I'll have to wait for this hybrid to be made with vietnamense from Decker/Antec.
G
gore42
Guest
Incidently, this hybrid is called Paph Wossner Butterfly". Aside from the places that have it in Taiwan, Clouds Orchids in Canada has it (at a temptingly low price).
- Matt
- Matt
kentuckiense
Debaser
Darn it, why did Wossner have to make this cross first?!
Carol
Well-Known Member
There is a listing on eBay for a Paph Wossner Love(micranthum x vietnamese) by a seller from California. I noticed the Paph Wossner Butterfly sold for a mere $15.99
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gore42
Guest
I noticed an (ended) Ebay auction too, but I believe it was from Canada. Still, it might be worth keeping an eye out
Matt
Matt
B
Bob Wellenstein
Guest
There are quite a few mis-statements in this thread, some that may lead people in the US to some problems.
This is not true, there has been barely sufficient time for the fastest growers of our releases to reach flowering size, much less to have produced offspring. Yes, lots of large vietnamense plants are in circulation. F&WL, to my surprise, are taking a lot of interest in pursuing these. How do I know? By the calls from people asking me to fake invoices for them (forget it) and from calls from F&WL agents asking for verification of paperwork. They especially like eBay, as one agent said to me "ebay transactions are a legal slam dunk" as ebay keeps excellent transaction records.
The plants were placed in a rescue center which allowed us to work with them, but they as required by law stayed at the rescue center. Only capsules and pollen were removed.
This is not true, there has been barely sufficient time for the fastest growers of our releases to reach flowering size, much less to have produced offspring. Yes, lots of large vietnamense plants are in circulation. F&WL, to my surprise, are taking a lot of interest in pursuing these. How do I know? By the calls from people asking me to fake invoices for them (forget it) and from calls from F&WL agents asking for verification of paperwork. They especially like eBay, as one agent said to me "ebay transactions are a legal slam dunk" as ebay keeps excellent transaction records.
No, the only hybrid that we released were Ho Chi Minhs. We produced many more hybrids, but have only sold a few flasks of one or two of these crosses early on. The rest are here growing, and because of the hassles and headaches the rest of this whole issue have caused us, I dread selling them. I guess if I sell them directly, and not as flasks or compots as with the vietnamense or Ho Chi Minh, it will be less of a hassle later on with filling out court affidavits.
Doesn't seem to be the case based on the emails and phone calls we are receiving, as stated above.
G
gore42
Guest
Mr Wellenstein,
Thanks for the clarifications. I hope that I had made it clear that my information regarding your vietnamense was only rumor, which obviously turned out to be mistaken, as is so often the case with rumors.
As long as I'm here, let me address a couple of the points you raised.
My reasoning progressed as follows: You have made a legal vietnamense hybrid (in the USA), as a consequence of your access to legal vietnamense parent plants. Others also have had access to these plants (namely, Glen Decker, or so he told me). If you've had time to make a hybrid, so has anyone else with access. So, there has been sufficient time for others to make hybrids, though it seems apparent that nobody else has actually done so. Perhaps it is simply an issue of access, not time.
And, as you said later in your post,
So, indeed, several hybrids have been made. I only said that they SHOULD be available... hint hint
Anyway, to move on to the next point....
Here, I wasn't speaking of most vietnamense hybrids, simply of Paph hybrids generally, in response to kentuckiense's comment regarding the legal status of hybrids on the whole. Looking back at my post, I see that it was ambiguous on that point. Sorry, my fault
I'm glad to hear that! I've seen so many vietnamense for sale that I was assuming that they just weren't being looked after anymore. In fact, there have been several species on Ebay (hangianum comes to mind) that have been offered for months at a time with no action being taken, which I have found surprising. I was starting to get the impression that our USWF just didn't care about us anymore
Whether or not people can get away with buying or selling illegal plants (practically speaking), I certainly wouldn't suggest that people do it! If anyone took my comment that way, then I'm very sorry indeed.
Anyway, thanks again for clearing this up.
- Matthew Gore
Thanks for the clarifications. I hope that I had made it clear that my information regarding your vietnamense was only rumor, which obviously turned out to be mistaken, as is so often the case with rumors.
As long as I'm here, let me address a couple of the points you raised.
My reasoning progressed as follows: You have made a legal vietnamense hybrid (in the USA), as a consequence of your access to legal vietnamense parent plants. Others also have had access to these plants (namely, Glen Decker, or so he told me). If you've had time to make a hybrid, so has anyone else with access. So, there has been sufficient time for others to make hybrids, though it seems apparent that nobody else has actually done so. Perhaps it is simply an issue of access, not time.
And, as you said later in your post,
So, indeed, several hybrids have been made. I only said that they SHOULD be available... hint hint
Anyway, to move on to the next point....
Here, I wasn't speaking of most vietnamense hybrids, simply of Paph hybrids generally, in response to kentuckiense's comment regarding the legal status of hybrids on the whole. Looking back at my post, I see that it was ambiguous on that point. Sorry, my fault
I'm glad to hear that! I've seen so many vietnamense for sale that I was assuming that they just weren't being looked after anymore. In fact, there have been several species on Ebay (hangianum comes to mind) that have been offered for months at a time with no action being taken, which I have found surprising. I was starting to get the impression that our USWF just didn't care about us anymore
Whether or not people can get away with buying or selling illegal plants (practically speaking), I certainly wouldn't suggest that people do it! If anyone took my comment that way, then I'm very sorry indeed.
Anyway, thanks again for clearing this up.
- Matthew Gore
E
Eric Muehlbauer
Guest
I wonder if action has been taken on some of these sellers...remember that guy who was selling all those hangianums and other illegal paphs on ebay, out of NYC? I haven't seen his offers in about 2 months. Speaking of which....I have heard that Vietnam did OK the exportation of at least one flask of hangianums recently....any info on this? Take care, Eric
kentuckiense
Debaser
Bob, thanks for stepping into the thread and clarifying things. I definitely do appreciate it. I really want to understand all these things.
I have a question, if you don't mind. I was recently given a beautiful Ho Chi Minh (thanks cdub!). I'm under the impression that it is safe to assume that it is from your crossing. It seems to be about the right size and everything. Therefore, I'm wondering if you used multiple vietnamense and/or delenatii parents for this cross. I'm just trying to figure out parentage of my plant. I know it's impossible to say for sure because I don't know 100% that my plant is from your cross, I just figured it'd be interesting to know.
Thanks Bob! I look forward to seeing those vietnamense hybrids some day.
I have a question, if you don't mind. I was recently given a beautiful Ho Chi Minh (thanks cdub!). I'm under the impression that it is safe to assume that it is from your crossing. It seems to be about the right size and everything. Therefore, I'm wondering if you used multiple vietnamense and/or delenatii parents for this cross. I'm just trying to figure out parentage of my plant. I know it's impossible to say for sure because I don't know 100% that my plant is from your cross, I just figured it'd be interesting to know.
Thanks Bob! I look forward to seeing those vietnamense hybrids some day.
kentuckiense
Debaser
That'd be great. Maybe they learned from the vietnamense debacle?Eric Muehlbauer said:
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