Submitting plants recently purchased in bloom: ethical or unethical?

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kentuckiense

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The title says it all, really. To me, an AOS award is as much about your ability to get the plant to bloom as it is the actual quality of the bloom, so I say that submitting plants purchased in bloom/spike is unethical. Counterpoint? Other opinions?
 

bwester

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I very much agree. A grower's skill should be an integral part of any award.
 
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Mark

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Depends on the award, really. Flower quality awards really "belong" to the plant and its breeder in a way, culture awards to the grower.
 

littlefrog

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It depends on how you represent yourself. It is unethical to submit a plant with the intention of having it judged for culture, if you haven't been responsible for its culture. Quality awards (HCC, AM, FCC) are awards to the plant, not you. If you want to take credit for it, blame it on your excellent skills at picking plants to buy.

Excellent flowers should be recognized regardless of who grew the plant. If they aren't, how am I (as a judge) supposed to know what I'm comparing the next plant to? The more plants we look at, the better the standards become, and the better we can evaluate the next generation of breeding.
 

Hien

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Depends on the award, really. Flower quality awards really "belong" to the plant and its breeder in a way, culture awards to the grower.
I kind of agree w/ Mark.
1) The FCC, AM,HCC is really about the flower so it belongs to the plant no matter what. Although it is true partially of what Zach said, If the owner is not a good grower(as myself) and just buy the plant then he/she may not be able to reach the flower quality as awarded again .
If the person actually makes the cross with his/her own parents stock plants then he/she can be proud of the result (even if it is awarded for flower quality).
2) the culture award is really about the grower.
 

paphioland

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I totally disagree. The quality award is about the potential and genetics of the plant. It is supposed to provide some objective value to the plant so people know the quality of the bloom. It has nothing to do with culture. IT just shows that this plant has this potential. So to label something as unethical is a heavy statement and is attacking the character of the person doing it. Please specify why you think it is unethical. Is it wrong in a moral sense? I don't think it is. Does it represent an fundamental untruth? Absolutely not. The award does not require you to bloom it and is not the nature of the award. Is it harmful to others? No I think it theoretically helps set standards that help breeding goals.

By your logic then once a plant with an award is sold the award should be voided.

I totally disagree with your statement. That is why there are awards of quality
 

paphioland

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Actually you could say that it is unethical or not in the best interest of the orchid community not to take an awardable plant to judging and keep it all to yourself. When people do this they do not let others know the true standard and breeding trends in the world of orchids.

I do not believe this because I don't take good plants all the time. This is just for argument sake.
 

Candace

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The quality award is about the potential and genetics of the plant. It is supposed to provide some objective value to the plant so people know the quality of the bloom. It has nothing to do with culture.
You really believe quality awarded plants(HCC, AM, FCC) have nothing to do with culture? I agree those awards are for the plant, but there's no way the plant will be awarded without good culture. Awards are upgraded all the time due to someone having better growing culture for that blooming cycle.

Zach has raised a good question. I don't think it's unethical, but I don't have any special respect per se for someone who's bought a plant in bloom and brought it in for judging and received an award. As a matter of fact, most good orchid growers I socialize with snicker and whisper about those who do this.
 

Heather

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I have to say, I agree with the quality vs. cultural award system.

That said, our society has a rule about our SHOW table that you must have a plant in your possession to have it judged for at least six months (you can show it but will not get a ribbon).

While it is just show and tell, and encouragement to bring plants in for people to see, we do have a pointing system for our ribbons and the person with the most points at the end of the year wins an award and graduates from "hobbiest" to "advanced" or "advanced" to "expert" status.

I actually think it is a very good system - third place = 1 pt. 2nd place = 2pts, 1st place = 3 points, and if you deserve a cultural award, you get a first AND a 4pt. "grower's commendation" ribbon.

Ironically, my two greatest competitors growing the Cypripedium alliance in my society were both just moved out of my way to win. But now I have no plants to show! :sob: I'm just going to have to keep that Mexipedium of mine in one piece! ;)

*edit* I agree with Candace in that I would have less respect for people in my society who brought in blooming plants they just bought at Home Depot and got pointed ribbons when they had no participation in growing that plant.
 

Heather

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One more edit - I made a rule with myself that I only bring the Mex. for the show table on each NEW blooming - you cannot bring a plant 6 months in a row and get away with that either!

I have not yet decided whether or not I will show it at the MOS show in 2 weeks. I did get it ribboned at an MOS meeting last Spring. Actually, this is the first time I realized I still could. It has been blooming since April! It's a great educational plant, though, and one I like to encourage others to grow, so I like to show it off!
 

paphioland

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how do u know it is not just a bigger plant? why does it have to be culture?

I care about potential of a plant period. Unless you have a huge greenhouse and can bloom hundreds of the same plant it is hard to get fcc quality plants, actually it is damn unlikely. It is also not cost effective. To be honest growing is not as hard as finding good genetics. Should I bloom 50000 lowiis so I can find an album??

Most people I socialize with care about quality because that is key when it comes to hybridizing. Quality on small plants that says alot about the potential of a plant.

actually I do not pretend to be some super grower. I have never gotten a plant from the OZ and not had it get better as it gets bigger as Terry sells his plants usually one growth and maybe a start. Like that Heryanum got much bigger on its second bloom. One of my roths got thicker. My point is as a plant matures the flowers get better unless your culture is horrible.

Regardless it is not unethical
 

paphioland

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You really believe quality awarded plants(HCC, AM, FCC) have nothing to do with culture? I agree those awards are for the plant, but there's no way the plant will be awarded without good culture. Awards are upgraded all the time due to someone having better growing culture for that blooming cycle.

Zach has raised a good question. I don't think it's unethical, but I don't have any special respect per se for someone who's bought a plant in bloom and brought it in for judging and received an award. As a matter of fact, most good orchid growers I socialize with snicker and whisper about those who do this.
I didn't say it doesn't but it is much easier to find adequate culture than fcc quality genetic plants. The OZ has awesome stuff but those are the best out of hundreds sometimes. Most of the plants especially hybrids aren't fcc quality. Is Terry a good grower??? He is the best I know with some of the best genetics and still most plants are not award quality.
 
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Candace

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The OZ has awesome stuff but those are the best out of hundreds sometimes. Most of the plants especially hybrids aren't all that fantastic. Is Terry a good grower??? He is the best I know with some of the best genetics and still most plants are not award quality.
Interesting...
 

Rick Barry

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I'm reminded of Kay Rinaman, a longtime grower here in the Bay Area who passed away a few years back. She was a bit of a legend hereabouts for her ability to spot an awardable plant among dozens of also-rans. She was highly regarded in the orchid growing community for a talent that seemed almost inexplicable to even the most experienced growers and breeders. She would have been foolish not to exercise an ability that few of us possess.

The practice of submitting plants for judging that were purchased in bloom has long standing in the orchid community. It happens far more often than most of us realize. Some breeders don't even bother taking their plants for judging, due to the efforts required, or even out of a lack of respect for the judging system. In such a case, I think it is far preferable that someone, anyone, take exceptional plants where they can be viewed and evaluated.

Regards,
Rick
 

kentuckiense

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Interesting discussion!

I agree that "unethical" is probably too harsh of a word. I'm not known for my ways with words. In addition, I certainly did not make the original post to be passive-aggressive towards anyone, don't worry. I just thought that it's an interesting topic of debate.


I think Candace summed up my feelings best:

Candace said:
Zach has raised a good question. I don't think it's unethical, but I don't have any special respect per se for someone who's bought a plant in bloom and brought it in for judging and received an award. As a matter of fact, most good orchid growers I socialize with snicker and whisper about those who do this.
 
N

neo-guy

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All are correct when referring to the AOS quality award, that the award is for the flower. Although most flowers that get awarded have culture as a factor, it still does not matter if the plant was just purchased or owned for a period of time.

For ribbon judging and most society displays, there is usually a requirement that the person has grown it for a period of time. The ribbon is often both for the plant and the grower.

The AOS quality award is meant to recognize the flower, and that clonal name and award stays with it forever. I see no ethical issues if one purchases a plant and it receives an AOS award.

Hope that helps,
Peter.
 

paphioland

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I'm reminded of Kay Rinaman, a longtime grower here in the Bay Area who passed away a few years back. She was a bit of a legend hereabouts for her ability to spot an awardable plant among dozens of also-rans. She was highly regarded in the orchid growing community for a talent that seemed almost inexplicable to even the most experienced growers and breeders. She would have been foolish not to exercise an ability that few of us possess.

The practice of submitting plants for judging that were purchased in bloom has long standing in the orchid community. It happens far more often than most of us realize. Some breeders don't even bother taking their plants for judging, due to the efforts required, or even out of a lack of respect for the judging system. In such a case, I think it is far preferable that someone, anyone, take exceptional plants where they can be viewed and evaluated.

Regards,
Rick
I agree with this.

All the award says is that this plant is capable of this quality. Again by others logic the award should be taken away when it gets another owner. So every one who gets awards are great growers?? I think it is kind of silly to snicker over something so ridiculous. The goal of judging is the quality of the flower not the owner.

I guess people have different emphasis on their hobby. Seems many of you are concerned with growing. I am much more concerned with hybridizing and genetics than growing. I care about culture but that is not the goal of my collecting. I care about my eye and ability to someday create great crosses. Also just to behold something that pleases my eye. To see beauty.

I am sure many people are good growers but there are only a few great hybridizers. Maybe hybridizers should not be allowed to use pollen from flowers they have not grown from seed.

DOES EVERYONE GROW THEIR PLANTS FROM FLASK???? How many people here have ever awarded a plant grown from flask?? Better yet of their own breeding. We all know it is hardest to grow plants from flask and to hybridize quality crosses. If you haven't done both these things isn't it unethical to get an award on a plant you have not grown through its most difficult phase and had no part in creating its genetics????????
 

kentuckiense

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Again by others logic the award should be taken away when it gets another owner.
We aren't talking about just buying a plant, we're talking about buying a plant in bloom and then having it judged. Nobody here is arguing that awards should be removed when plants change hands, and from reading the thread, I'm not sure where you even got that notion from.
 

kentuckiense

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Also, as I mentioned before, "unethical" was a poor word choice as nobody is being hurt. I defer to Candace's first post in this thread to sum up my feelings on the subject.
 

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