Silicon the forgotten macronutrient?

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Bjorn

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Here is some feedback...

For some reason they do not tell us what "water soluble" fertilizer they used to fertilize the trials.

Then for some reason on the control group they supplemented the fertilizer with additional Potassium. WHY? For me this invalidates the comparison off the control group.

Since the trials here with K-lite indicate that Potassium excess may decrease plant growth what their trial may actually show is that increased Potassium decreases growth rather than silica increases growth.

That said I always try to add silica sand to my medias for all plants. Seemd to help growth. I always assumed the sand grains had a physical benefit but maybe it is the silica that it provides.
 
There are many good silicon sources available. Sand as we commonly use is one of the poorer, that has to do with the crystallinity of the quartz. Better alternatives are diatomeous earth, calsium silicate slag and the so-called microsilica. The easiest to get is probably the diatomeous earth(cat sand?):confused:
The paper that is linked claims that one of the effects of silicon fertilizing is to mediate uptake of several elements, one of them K, potassium :poke:
What is remarkable is that the availability of silicon in sand-free bark mixes is rather restricted. Could lack of available silicon be the rate limiting Factor for many orchidists?:confused:
 
I think I brought this up in one of the earlier converstations about low K in jungle plants. In the newly published article there is leaf litter data (from Sumatra) that shows that silica in leaves exceeded K, Mg, S, and Al. It was over 8000mg/Kg. A little more than 1/2 the Ca. So lots of Si leaf litter.

The amount of Si in various tap and well waters varies a lot, but is usually present in small amounts. There is probably plenty in the bark, CHC, and/or sphagnum moss we use in potting mixes. Not sure how much we are getting from fine sand or diatomaceous earth additions.

The reason for it coupled with K is that most potash solutions are primarily potassium silicates (and are also very alkaline). Sodium silicate is also cheap from the hardware supply as wood sealers. Various talc products are also just fine silicate based dust.

So not sure if its worth looking for another chemical additive rather than just working with the organic materials we use already. (Bark/moss/ground leaves....)
 
http://aob.oxfordjournals.org/content/96/6/1027.full.pdf

An interesting paper I just found.

Other than some special interest groups, angiosperms in general rated lower than mosses for silicon content.

Also if you can find raw talcum powder, that is magnesium silicate. Talc for humans is used as a desicant (water absorbant). I guess if used in small amounts and fully saturated to start it might be useful as a silcon supplement.
 
DE powder is probably the cheapest form of powdered silicates, but most of us also use pearlite (sponge rock) in our potting mixes, which is also 75% silicates. (So you could crush that too).
 
Since the trials here with K-lite indicate that Potassium excess may decrease plant growth what their trial may actually show is that increased Potassium decreases growth rather than silica increases growth.

Please! first I have also read of trials (not with orchids) that increased both root and top growth with added silica.
Second please show me proof where K excess may decrease plant growth? or low K increase it. The only definative thing I've seen so far is that klite has not induced K deficiency in the past 2 or so years. Nothing more.
 
As far as I know, woody plants do not contain very high Si concentrations comprared to the grasses especially bamboo. Woody plants use lignin for strength, grasses use Silica. Many paphs grow in association with grasses and bamboo.....and moss of course..
 
Please! first I have also read of trials (not with orchids) that increased both root and top growth with added silica.

I'm not saying silica does not increase growth. What I am pointing out is that the trial in the linked report is faulty because for the control group they increased the K in the fertilizer rather than just eliminate the silica. This leaves open the argument that the difference between the two groups could be the added K rather than lower Si.

Second please show me proof where K excess may decrease plant growth? or low K increase it. The only definative thing I've seen so far is that klite has not induced K deficiency in the past 2 or so years. Nothing more.

When it comes to plant nutrition and fertilizing plants nothing is definitive. Two many variables to ever know the exact reality. All a grower can do is use experience and observation to decide what to use. Maybe I should not have used K-lite by name and rather just said excess K. I was not trying to debut K-lite but since in this Si trial they used increased K and reported decreased growth the K-lite trial (reported) results here are directly connected and appropriate.

Don't you read the reports ST members post about their K-lite use? Most if not everyone has suggested growth improvement so i don't know why you say "nothing more".

Perhaps excess K inhibits the plants use of Si?
 
As far as I know, woody plants do not contain very high Si concentrations comprared to the grasses especially bamboo. Woody plants use lignin for strength, grasses use Silica. Many paphs grow in association with grasses and bamboo.....and moss of course..

Many tropical hardwood trees have very high silica content. Enough that it is blamed for dulling saw blades. Some tropical sawn lumber has visible pockets of Silica. Two of the species that I am familiar with in Peru that are high in Silica also are two species that host large populations of epithetic plants.
 
I'm not saying silica does not increase growth. What I am pointing out is that the trial in the linked report is faulty because for the control group they increased the K in the fertilizer rather than just eliminate the silica. This leaves open the argument that the difference between the two groups could be the added K rather than lower Si.
I only glanced at the paper but didn't they use Potassium silicate as the Si source? Maybe they added K to the controls to to keep the K in line with that added to the others?
 
Many tropical hardwood trees have very high silica content. Enough that it is blamed for dulling saw blades. Some tropical sawn lumber has visible pockets of Silica. Two of the species that I am familiar with in Peru that are high in Silica also are two species that host large populations of epithetic plants.

Point taken.
The trial I read noted that plants grown in Pine bark based media (99% here) had very low levels of Si available to them compared to when soil was a major ingredient.
 
I only glanced at the paper but didn't they use Potassium silicate as the Si source? Maybe they added K to the controls to to keep the K in line with that added to the others?

That's possible but if fact they should have included that in the report. They stated they added Si to a water soluble fertilizer. Then for the control they withheld the Si and added K. They made too many variable changes for the control to be a control. If they changed the source of K that changes the control fertilizer solution more than just taking out the Si. If they simply added Potassium silicate to a water soluble fertilizer to increase the Si then what did they add to the control side to increase the K? Potassium Nitrate?
Was the "soluble fertilizer" a complete fertilizer containing all nutrients? Or was it just UREA? We don't know and that bis why I said the trial was faulty.
 
I'm not saying silica does not increase growth. What I am pointing out is that the trial in the linked report is faulty because for the control group they increased the K in the fertilizer rather than just eliminate the silica.
The same has to be said about any observations made using K-lite. Many variables have been changed in the K-lite formulation compared to conventional formulations such as MSU or DynaGrow; not just the proportion of K. The proportion of phosphorus has been decreased just as much as the proprtion of K. Also, the proportions of Ca and Mg have been significantly increased. And the amount of sulfate, which I consider to be another important variable, is not even mentioned

The K-lite formulation could just as accurately be called P-lite though I think even better would be to call it KP-lite or CalMag.

It is my, unsubstantiated, belief that conventional formulations do not have an excess of K but an excess of P and a deficiency of Ca, Mg and S. And, except for the deficiency of K and the failure to mention S, this is just what the K-lite formulation corrects.

Maybe I should not have used K-lite by name and rather just said excess K.
Oh no, you really should mention the K-lite formulation by name since so many other variables were changed in the K-lite formulation in addition to reducing the proportion of K.

Don't you read the reports ST members post about their K-lite use? Most if not everyone has suggested growth improvement so i don't know why you say "nothing more".
Assuming that these reports are accurate and that the change to K-lite was the only variable changed then this still does not demonstrate the K toxicity thesis since so many other variables were changed in the K-lite formulation.
 
a good number of fertilizers now have both calcium and magnesium in them, and if a fertilizer was quite a bit short of phosphorus, which would normally make things taller and stretchier, possibly, so less phosphorus might make them look 'shorter' or seem to grow and expand less, or 'not grow as good'

one thing to notice, is that there has been some mention in threads that sulfur can be necessary and sometimes it may not be high enough in our orchid feeds or watering. most fertilizers that add calcium and magnesium intentionally leave out sulfur since they can react and bind in solution (making a nice endothermic reaction; icy fertilizer barrel)
 
And then back to silicon please.....

Seems as if I triggered a discussion here that may lead us somewhere;)
I have skimmed through some papers on the issue and found that often calcium silicate(CaSiO3) is used as silicon source. Having worked with silicate science for 30years now, I wonder whether calcium silicate actually is a good source of silicon, just as I wonder whether the so-called soluble silicates are any good at all:confused:
The reason for my doubts are based on the following: for silicon to be absorbed by plants, it must be as soluble monosilicic acid that is slightly soluble, some ppm. The problem with the silicates is that the silicon is present as anions, e.g. as SiO3^2- . In acid environments, these can equilibrate with monosilicic acid (Si(OH)4) but under any circumstance, monosilicic acid is a shortlived compound due to polymerization. And the polymers are not that easily absorbed by the plants.:wink:
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ja01637a017
This link http://www.firt.org/sites/default/files/Scarbrough_Silica_in_Plant_Nutrition_presentation.pdf
sums up quite a few of the observations, although it is a commercial marketing presentation. The product in question here is probably a slag.
Then, my two cents on why I do not believe in soluble silicate solutions. Most soluble silica solutions a.k.a. Waterglass, e.g. Potassium waterglass has an alkali/silica ratio that is much lower than the required ratio of 1. This simply implies that silicon is not present as monomeric silica, but as polymers. And the polymers do not easily get absorbed. And if the ratio is correct, delivery as a solution probably results in a polymerization anyway:evil:
Using these solutions may well have positive effects, sealing/strengthening the epidermis with a silica glass, but it does not get absorbed by the roots.
So to sum up, silicon nutrition is not straight forward. What can be done is to use soluble silica(not silicates). This is typically amorphous structures with high surface area. Some alternatives have been mentioned earlier in this thread. Perlite has been mentioned, I am uncertain how effective it is but perhaps:confused:
Silicon fertilizing is done at a big scale in the rice-fields of the far east, and a lot of research is being done on the issue in countries like Japan. Of course, rice is a silicon intensive crop, and the fields get easily depleted. Some modern agricultural practises add to the problem. One example is that while the rice hulls/straw used to be burnt on field in slow burning heaps(low temperature), nowadays the remains tend to be carried away and burnt in a more effective way, producing heat etc. The problem is that even if the ash would be brought back on the rice field, the silicon would have become unavailable due to the high firing temperature. It has turned out that the old fashioned stinky heaps of slow burning rice remains was perfect to liberate the silicon which was brought back onto the fields.:D this does of course not happen anymore and if it does it does not contribute significantly to soluble silicon, and the fields get depleted. Composting is not an effective way either it seems.:rollhappy:
So, back to start; my original question was: Why do we fertilize with phosphorous, sulfur, calcium, magnesium etc. but not with silicon although silicon is just as abundant in the plants as the rest? And as we know, the substrates commonly used are not particularly rich in soluble silicon either?:poke
Btw. I have started fertilizing with microsilica and "think" I see notable improvements. I will never be able to prove it though, as I also changed other things more or less simultaneously.:evil::evil::evil::evil:
 
You say, composting is not effective. Do you know why?
I'll have to look it up in my books, for silicon fertilizing is part of organic/bio agriculture and more so in biol/dynamic agriculture methods.
 

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