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Phrag D'allesandroi

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smartie2000

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I just came home from my society meeting and bought 4 cubic feet of bark (113 litres) and other potting stuff. I also got 2 masdevallias for only $6, someone just wanted to rid of them. There were so many cheap masd, but I bought too late and got the left overs.

And I got this D'allesandroi, which I believe are rare to find, especially in Canada. I didn't notice that it was misspelled as Phrag besseae var. dealesandro x sib (‘Echo’ x ‘Doug Pulley’) on its original tag with it's the stock number beginning with Z untill I got home. I google it and I find speculation that this cross is actually a Phrag Jersey (D'allesandroi x besseae) from OZ on SOF. I bent the spike on this during transit so I don't know if it will keep blooming, maybe it will branch?...I'm starting to really love besseaes!
What do you think ID experts?

 

kentuckiense

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Whatever it is, it's gorgeous.

Does it have stolons? I've seen photos of OZ "d'als" that clearly weren't because they were climbing with huge stolons.

Furthermore, I'm not entirely convinced of d'alessandroi as an acceptable taxon. Have there been any studies that show that all of the Ecuadorian d'alessandroi populations are monophyletic when compared with Ecuadorian besseae as a whole?
 

smartie2000

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This guy is so obsessed with phrags, its where I get most of Phrags here. He called himself FatOldBaldGuy Orchids:rollhappy: at the orchid show and got an AOS nomination for a besseae this year. I think he brought this plant up from the states himself.

I'm gonna go check on stolons the plant is potted so deeply...
 

smartie2000

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The new growth is higher up than the old growth so it is potted deeply, so it looks like it climbs. The new growth is close to the old growth. I don't want to unpot it yet because I don't want to have an accident with the spike, the media is all heavy rock.

The pot is clear and I see no stolons or runners.
 

Kyle

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kentuckiense said:
Furthermore, I'm not entirely convinced of d'alessandroi as an acceptable taxon. Have there been any studies that show that all of the Ecuadorian d'alessandroi populations are monophyletic when compared with Ecuadorian besseae as a whole?
I don't think thats ever been done, but when you see a real dalessandroi beside a besseae, you will believe that the seperation is warranted. The plants and flowers are quite distinct. I have heard that some natural hybridization occurs, but can't back that up with any proof.

Your plant looks like besseae, maybe a Jersey. The pouch is to long and pointed and the floweres come off the spike at the wrong angle (close to 90 instead of 45), and the stolon.

Just my opinion.

Kyle
 

smartie2000

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oops I noticed I even spelled the species wrong! ....dalessandroi is what the orchid registry uses. No wonder I can't find more info when I googled...

Another vendor also had a more ideally shaped dalessandroi for $65. The shape looked exactly like a full shaped besseae....
 

smartie2000

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A picture of the plant, and staminode and arrangement of petals.




I think the bloom was knocked quite badly. It's developing bud is limp...
 
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isaias m rolando

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I do not understand why it is not just a variety of P. besseae. It certainly looks similar, and very nice, than many P. bessae in Peru. Does anyone know if DNA studies fingerprints have been done?
Thanks for info
Isaias
 

NYEric

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The flower shape doesn't look like [most] stuff I've seen called Phrag. dalessandroi, but then again the one I got from Dennis Dalessandro hasn't bloomed yet so I wont say for sure.
 

smartie2000

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Tom from Fox Valley has told me that all of (`Echo' x `Doug Pulley') were Jersey. It's a sibbling cross, so I'm guessing both parents were Jerry then.

It does have what I think is a tiny horn on it's staminode. According to Kyle's post on SOF these dalessandroi have no horn. Tom's last OZ bloom fell off so he can't look at the staminode to see if there's a 'protuberance'. His also had some stolon growth, but shorter than a besseae. Tom also told me that Kyle is writing a paper on this stuff. Do Jersey's have horns?

My second bud is developing even though it is like flopping on the other bloom. I wish I took better care

Is dalessandroi still recognized as a species? Someone said it wasn't....
 
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O

ORG

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Here a picture of a true Phragmipedium Jersey. The growth are very near together without climbing stolones.


Best greetings

Olaf
 
O

ORG

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It should be called Phrag. Jersey, when it is the cross between Phrag. besseae and Phrag. dalessandroi.
Both species are accepted in the registration of hybrids by the Royal Horticultural Society.

The name Phrag. besseae var. Jersey is really nonsense.

Best greetings

Olaf
 
I

isaias m rolando

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Well, I've got an answer for DNA finguerprints for what is called Phrag dallesandroi. Who told me? Dr Mark Chase is here in San Jose de Costa Rica for the III International Orchid Conservation Conference. We attended also the Orchid Show last sunday. The answer is NO, the DNA counting is similar so it should be considered as a variety, NOT a specie. Probably this is why at Kew's list it is considered a variety and not a species.
If anybody would like answers I have a group of fine scientists here, all toguether. So lets take advantage.
Have a good night
 
O

ORG

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Dear Isaias,
I could live with the decision that dalessandroi would be a variety of besseae, but the here shown is whether a typical besseae nor a typical dalessandroi (or in your line besseae var. dalessandroi).

We need in the future a clear line of artificial propagation and the labeling of the results. In the past a great mxture between all local forms of besseae was produced. Now it is near impossible to identify these plants.

Best greetings

Olaf
 

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