Phrag Comparison, Species Part 2

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SlipperKing

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I only have the two plants to make this comparison with so there could very well be a large variation within each species (or sub-species). First, here is pearcei 'Little Angel'
P1070682.jpg


And now ecuadorense 'Si' or variety ecuadorense 'Si'
P1070684.jpg


Again, their growth habit and flower size. Not as dramatic as the hybrids I posted in part 1 but still a difference can be seen. Both are grown S/H.
P1070681.jpg
 
I could never pick out one from the other in bloom shots, The side by side is convincing, but I still don't think I could tell the blooms apart even if I had money riding on it.
 
Interesting. So the pearcei var. ecuadorense is a smaller plant. But I agree with Hera that the pictures of the flowers alone don't give a clue as to what is what.:)
 
Horticulturally, they're both ecuadorense. They're just different sizes of the same species. It happens. The 'Si' clone is particularly miniature; that's all. {For example: Check out the local population of Dandelions. Some are very tiny and some are giant. They are all the same species and interbreed constantly.} However, technically, ecuadorense does not really exist. All the small-ish plants with flowers like the ones pictured are pearcei. The ones we commonly call pearcei are much larger and the flower petals have more ruffling and less significant "eyebrows". Those are actually the product of natural interbreeding between pearcei (what we call ecuadorense) and boisserianum. So, in realiity, there is boisserianum, pearcei and a natural hybrid between the two. But, horticulturally, we refer to boisserianum as boisserianum; we refer to the natural hybrid involving boisserianum and pearcei (large plants), as just pearcei; and we refer to the pure species pearcei (mini plants), as ecuadorense.

This naming mess has come into being because for a short time, taxonomists recognised the natural hybrid (big plants), as pure pearcei and the pure pearcei (mini plants), as ecuadorense.....as did the RHS hybrid registrar. Then, they both changed their minds; but, many of the hobbyists did not change their tags. Now, we have a situation where some hobbyists believe that we have boisserianum, pearcei and ecuadorense (3 distinct species) and the natural hybrid between boisserianum x pearcei which is often called Amazonica, or x amazonica. Then, we have the hobbyists who believe the current thinking (by taxonomists and the RHS); that there are only two species, boisserianum and pearcei. Then, there are people like me who, while I believe that there are only two species (boisserianum and pearcei), I use the name ecuadorense as well (in a Horticultural context), simply so that my fellow horticulturalists will know which plant I'm refering to. If I say "pearcei, you don't know if I'm talking about the big one that is the natural hybrid or the little one that is the true pearcei and which is often refered to as ecuadorense. However, if I refer to ecuadorsense, you know that I'm only refering to the miniature sized, true species - pearcei.

However, if you exhibit and want to win anything, you'd better not label your miniature true pearcei plants as just pearcei. That's because they will be compared to the much larger plants that were awarded as pearcie; but, which are actually the natural hybrid with boisserianum. The natural hybrid looks very much like a pure pearcei; but, on steroids. The little plants that are pure pearcie just cannot compete against that. However, if you label them ecuadorense, or pearcei var. ecuadorense, the judges will only compare them to other true pearcei's with the miniature growth habit.
 
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my pearcei var ecuadorense is also a very small palnt as yours is and my petals have a little more brown or red in them,nice comparison,good one John I was just posting,thanks for informing us,I think you have mentioned this in another post
 
It would be better to have them identified separately as pearcei/ ecuadorense just for the reasons John mentioned.

It would be better if we could drop ecuadorense altogether; but, it would only work if EVERYONE did that. However, that would also mean that the people with the large awarded pearcei's (which are actually a natural hybrid), would have to be willing to nullify their awards. I don't think that's about to happen. This has become too much of a mess and it involves too many people and the value of too many awarded plants for it to ever be straightened out completely. The only thing we can do is keep track of both the truth and the mistakes and hopefully use the correct names when registering new hybrids.
 
What happened to richteri John? The natural hybrid I've been lead to believe between boisserianum and pearcei is called richteri. My Phrag richteri is 3 times bigger then this pearcei and I had another richeri 'Christmas Surprise' (which has died) ever larger then my 'Crooked Creek' clone. Unfortunetly both of these richteri's where awarded under the name pearcei. I didn't know anything about richteri when I got these two plants awarded as pearcei's and you can't go back and change the records.
Leo has a peice of my 'Crooked Creek' richteri clone he can atest to the size of the plant. Dot may have it too. I'll see if I can find an up loaded PIC of it and post.
 
Here is a picture of my richteri and you can see what John is talking about with the ruffled edges and sharp lines. I'll keep looking for tha plant PIC.

Phrag richteri 'Crooked Creek' HCC (awarded as pearcei)
p1050824p.jpg
 
What happened to richteri John? The natural hybrid I've been lead to believe between boisserianum and pearcei is called richteri. My Phrag richteri is 3 times bigger then this pearcei and I had another richeri 'Christmas Surprise' (which has died) ever larger then my 'Crooked Creek' clone. Unfortunetly both of these richteri's where awarded under the name pearcei. I didn't know anything about richteri when I got these two plants awarded as pearcei's and you can't go back and change the records.
Leo has a peice of my 'Crooked Creek' richteri clone he can atest to the size of the plant. Dot may have it too. I'll see if I can find an up loaded PIC of it and post.

First of all, that's a gorgeous flower!!! I actually love this more than true pearcei (ecuadorense). I like that it's larger and I like the ruffles. Notice that the pouch has vestigial horns on each side of the pouch rim. That's the main dead give-away that boisserianum is in there. True pearcei (ecuadorense), does NOT have horns; Phrag. boisserianum does and they partially come through in it's hybrids.

I believe that over time, Phrag. amazonica (a.k.a, X amazonica), became accepted as a synonym for richteri and that X richteri is the correct name for the natural hybrid between boisserianum x pearcei. Also, don't forget that plants of the natural hybrid may not have 50% of each species in their lineage. Many of the plants with mixed lineage are the products of back crossing and so on, etc., for many generations. In general, more boisserinaum genes gives you larger plants, more pronounced vestigial horns, more ruffling on the petals and less furry "eyebrows".

Dot, are you absolutely certain that the photo of richteri you posted is the same clone as the one Rick posted? Look at the staminode. Rick's plant has very furry "eyebrows" and your clone barely has any "eyebrows". I'd never have guessed that these two photos are of the same clone.
 
I'm certain John that Dot's plant is the same. Probably just a fluke after dividing and re-establishing.
 

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