Phrag. besseae: Differences between wild types?

Discussion in 'Taxonomy' started by Vox, Jan 18, 2020.

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  1. Jan 18, 2020 #1

    Vox

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    Two years ago I got my first pure besseae, and after some difficulties (not enough watering…) now it’s growing okay. I always was a fan of this little beauty, and now I’m thinking of getting more of them. I know that there are “common” besseae to be purchased, and also line breeding types, like those Popow is selling here.

    But on the other hand there seem to be wild forms, that might differ from the commonly sold besseae: Ecuagenera is selling four different forms that seem to be wild types from different locations (Limon, Chiguinda, Guarumales, Amazonas). There a pictures on their website, but honestly I can’t see the concrete differences of these types. By the way, that besseae on my windowsill is such an „Amazonas“. It didn’t flower till now.

    Could anyone please say something about the specifications of these Ecuagenera types? In this forum there are older threads dealing with a Peruvian besseae. Is this Peru besseae identical with one of those Ecuagenera-besseae?

    I'm simply not sure what I should look for. I could imagine that wild types for me are more interesting than "common" besseae. Thanks for opinions!

    Thanks and sorry for my bad English. I’m working on it.
    Greetings, Volker
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2020
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  2. Jan 21, 2020 #2

    tenman

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    AFAIK, there are only two recognized varieties other than the type form: dalessandroi and flavum, and I'm not entirely certain of the formal status of the yellow, it may be forma, etc, since it's only a difference in color. There are, of course, different shades of color from a deeper red through bright orange and on to pale peach, but those are not considered 'varieties' in the formal sense.
     
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  3. Jan 30, 2020 #3

    NYEric

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    Color (flavum) is not a form. There are definitely differences in the forms. The original collected type from Peru has nicest shape and good color but limited flowers and does not branch. P. besseae dalessandroi was collected in Ecuador by Denis and has drooping lateral sepals and has a more orangey color, but it branches freely, holds multiple blooms per spike, and has the yellow colorburst in the center.
    The Chiguinda and Guarumales are similar, the flowers are poorly shaped and smaller than the first 2 types, but the plants branch freely, hold multiple blooms per spike and are darker (more red) than v. dalessandroi.
    I don't have experience with type from Limon.
     
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  4. Jan 30, 2020 #4

    tomkalina

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    Phrag. besseae fma flavum Braem is a form (“fma”) according to Braem.
     
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  5. Jan 30, 2020 #5

    tomkalina

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    .....and Cribb.
     
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  6. Jan 31, 2020 #6

    Stone

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    Colour is ''form'' not variety. It cannot be anything else.
     
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  7. Jan 31, 2020 #7

    ORG

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    Phrag. besseae forma flava is an accepted classification. It is not known how many besseae flava were found in the past. It was told only one plant. but I don't trust it.
    When you are interested in the different local races, then look to my book About the genus. There I showed a lot of Pictures of plants of the different regions, but also mixtures.
    Here one plant cultivated in Germany by Franz Glanz. I had around 12 inflorescences Phragmipedium besseae forma flava Franz 2016 - 11 - 14 a 2.jpg Phragmipedium besseae forma flava Wössen 2016 - 12 a herausragend kultiviert.jpg
     
  8. Jan 31, 2020 #8

    NYEric

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    Olaf, Ask Franz where he got it. I still believe all flavums come from the sport Tom Kalina grew from Popow.
     
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  9. Jan 31, 2020 #9

    BrucherT

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    Holy god.
     
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  10. Jan 31, 2020 #10

    BrucherT

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    Hey Tom, what light can you shed on the yellow form? You have quite the story....
     
  11. Jan 31, 2020 #11

    tomkalina

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    The only additional light worth shedding is that the correct name of the yellow form is Phrag. besseae fma flavum Braem, not "flava" because the Genus epithet ends in M (masculine) not A (feminine). It would be called forma flava if it was a Cattleya,Miltonia, etc.
     
  12. Feb 1, 2020 #12

    tomkalina

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    Good book, Olaf. I wish it was published in English instead of German.
     
  13. Feb 1, 2020 #13

    richgarrison

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    reminds me of a conversation i had with Olaf at the paph forum a few years ago, where he had a few copies of the book. He looked at me with a smile and said, it has a lot of nice pictures. :)

    I truly wish i spent more time staying up on my german from college...
     
  14. Feb 3, 2020 #14

    NYEric

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    I have the German book on South American Lady Slippers by Olaf. I should start the translation!!!
     
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  15. Feb 3, 2020 #15

    Vox

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    Are you talking about Olaf Gruß, Lateinamerikanische Frauenschuhe, Ruhmannsfelden 2014? It seems to be completely sold out by all common providers... :-(
     
  16. Feb 4, 2020 #16

    NYEric

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    Yes. I spoke to my GF today about it. Her German is decent so we will look into it.
     
  17. Feb 4, 2020 #17

    richgarrison

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    but then i need a copy of that book seems like it's value is already skyrocketing based on your post :)
     
  18. Feb 5, 2020 #18

    Vox

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    That's a nice project. If you need any help - my English might be quite bad, but my German definitely is better... ;-I
     
  19. Feb 5, 2020 #19

    NYEric

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    Hahah. You can look at mine in NYC. :D
     
  20. Feb 6, 2020 #20

    ORG

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    For persons, who did not Need all the Pictures, my Editor produced my smaller book About the genus some monthes ago. Around 120 pages with nearly 300 Pictures.
    Perhaps it would be interesting to produce a english Version of my first book, ut it is difficult to find an Editor for.

    Olaf

    000 Titel-10.jpg 015-043 A_Seite_06.jpg 015-043 A_Seite_07.jpg

    Best greetings

    Olaf


    000 Titel-10.jpg 015-043 A_Seite_06.jpg 015-043 A_Seite_07.jpg
     
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