Defining the baseline for Jenosa type Cymbidiums

[alecStewart1]

Hello!

This is something I'm hoping to discuss as I find that some aspects of culture for Cym. ensilfolium, sinense, goeringii, faberi, kanran, etc is a bit muddy.

So what I would like to do is let's start with the most basic example of someone obtaining one of these orchids:
It's likely come from Taiwan, if you're lucky the Japanese type was grown in Japan, the plant was shipped to some port area in your country (example, California for the United States), a vendor gets it shipped to them along with some other plants they likely got wholesale, you bought the plant from this vendor and now it's been shipped to you.

Where do you start once you unpack your new Asian Cymbidium?

We could go by each species or just a singular species, or be very generic and say for all of them or some of them that you have experience with.

I think the more useful and easiest way of describing this is in list or section format, like you see with some vendors do with plants. I know that some people may not like that, but it's a really digestible way of giving information. Also it keep it simple, here are these things that should probably be listed:

- What to do once first receiving the plant from shipping
- Soil/Substrate requirements
- Potting requirements
- Watering schedule/requirements
- Temperature lows and highs
- Humidity minimum and maximum percentages
- Light requirements, be it in lux, foot candles, or a general description of a percentage of shade.
- Fertilization schedule and requirements (if the plant wants more calcium than nitrogen, for example)
- Common pests and/or issues to watch out for

I know that for more finicky or specialized orchids this is are to do in a short list or small sections, but I think it's important to try to be clear and concise. I know that different growing environments can lead to differences in culture, but there should be at least a baseline for people to look at and determine what changes they might need to make for themselves.

Hopefully this leads to and interesting discussion.

 

[mrhappyrotter]

DISCLAIMERS: To some extent, culture of section Jensoa can be a polarizing and "controversial" topic. Additionally, we're talking about a diverse group of species, some of which are nebulously defined, where some are wide ranging and highly variable, so there's hardly a one size fits all answer to many of these questions. As always, what works for me may not necessarily work for thee. And finally, any advice and answers I might give should be taken in consideration of a myriad nuances and caveats that will be difficult to adequately mention in a forum post. Entire books could be and have been written on this subject, so don't be surprised if I skip a lot of details yet somehow end up still writing a novella. Maybe my final note, species in this section are notorious for being mislabeled and taxonomy is less than clear for some of them (to say the least), so that further affects any advice given. And one final, final note: Some of this depends on what your expectations and goals are in growing these plants -- in some cases there are notable differences between what's required to simply grow and bloom them versus what's required to grow them absolutely flawlessly in stringent, traditional manner.

> What to do once first receiving the plant from shipping

I'm giving the worst answer© here: It depends. Typically the Cymbs as you described come bare root or equivalent with no actively growing roots. In that case, I pot them up in pre-soaked mix, place them in a DIY cache pot, and minimally water until I see new root growth. I semi-subscribe to witchcraft and will treat with some combination of: Superthrive and/or pre/pro biotics or fungicide depending on my mood, current stock, and the season. I do try to provide elevated humidity, at least until I see signs of active growth.

> Soil/Substrate requirements

It somewhat depends on the species, but I generally use a combination of organic and inorganic components in my mixes, sizes of components loosely based on the size / age of the plant, and the species. In most case, standard orchid mixes will work just fine. Pick one, and it'll probably be okay.

I do not intend to offend or disparage expert growers on this topic, but most (if not all) of these species are pretty adaptable, and if you get advice along the lines of "[species x] requires [potting mix y]", I'm just going to say with 98.748% certainty that you can ignore that. The species in this section typically aren't THAT picky to the point that I would be comfortable labeling it a requirement. For example, some people say that C. goeringii MUST be grown in a mineral based mix composed of very specific ingredients, but I know for a fact these will grow just fine in plain ole dirt in the right climate and conditions.

For reference, I grow and bloom a variety of these species potted in standard bark based mixes that I use for the bulk of my orchid collection. Orchiata, large grade perlite, LECA, charcoal, etc. No specific formula, just whatever I have on hand at the time and feel like using.

> Watering schedule/requirements

Depends on the time of year, your conditions, and the species being discussed. This is literally too big of topic to comfortably and 100% accurately cover in a forum response.

I will say, I have historically grown my section Jensoa plants year round indoors, but more recently I built a minimally heated greenhouse where I grow most of them.

The general rule (for me and my plants): If it's warm, water frequently enough that the mix doesn't dry out completely. If it's cooler (than room temp), water sparingly. If it's cold, don't water at all.

> Temperature lows and highs

Depends. Many of these species are more adaptable and variable than some growers give them credit for. For the most part, warm to hot summers with lots of moisture, and cooler to cold winters where they aren't watered much but humidity is kept elevated will work. The real variable is how cold they'll tolerate and prefer. And that's highly variable. Not just by species, but also by cultivar.

> Humidity minimum and maximum percentages

My advice here is to literally not worry about this. If it's dry or the plants are in bloom, provide elevated humidity if you can. Otherwise, there's a good chance they won't care unless you're growing in the extremes, in which case I have no experience so can't help you.

> Light requirements, be it in lux, foot candles, or a general description of a percentage of shade.

This is super variable. These are adaptable plants and different species will have different needs. For the most part, they don't need full sun, and will do fine with morning sun followed by afternoon shade. Some species do best in full shade conditions, others can handle quite a bit of sun, even when it's hot.

The super general and not to be taken as 100% gospel: The wider the leaves, the shadier they prefer. The narrower the leaves, the more sun they can handle.

> Fertilization schedule and requirements (if the plant wants more calcium than nitrogen, for example)

Another topic where some people will suggest that you have to get super specific and complicated, when in reality, most of these plants just aren't that picky. Fertilize with Miracle Grow if that's your taste and budget. Fertilize with organic free range non-gmo banana blossums grown on one tiny island in Indonesia if that's more your style. Chances are, it won't make a big difference one way or the other.

In general, fertilize the plants when they are actively growing roots and leaves, cut back or eliminate when they aren't growing at all. Pretty much the same as any other standard orchid's care.

> Common pests and/or issues to watch out for

First thing that comes to mind: Viruses. If you have the means, then I would highly, highly recommend that you test for at least the 2 most common (CymbV and ORSV). Tests are readily available in the US and several other parts of the world.

Watering too much at the wrong time of year can be an invitation to rot if temperatures are cool and days are short (depending on the species).

Leaf spotting can be a problem in crowded conditions, lacking air flow.

Sunburn is a concern in some cases (like mine where plants are moved around throughout the course of the year and when grown in areas where temperatures can get quite hot at the height of summer).

 

[alecStewart1]

Well, give me a second here to respond. My long reply is getting pinged as spam for some reason...

 

[alecStewart1]

For substrate:


I think the one thing I've noticed is that there might be a point the pH of the substrate, and of course that it providers enough air between the roots.

For my Cym. sinense and goeringii I have a mix that orchid bark, pumice, kanuma and satsuma. I tested the pH yesterday with a kit and it's around 5.5 - 6.0, which is in the range I generally see recommended that's 5.5 - 6.5.


For watering:


Hmm, I didn't know different species in this subtype would need different watering amounts, schedules etc. I guess I really should just mentioned to stick with the 3 that you see most sold in the US: Cym. ensifolium, sinense, and goeringii.


Again, I probably should just mentioned to stick with the main 3 you see a lot in the US. I know ensifolium is the more heat tolerant than the other 2, sinense is somewhere in the middle at most, and goeringii likes to be in cooler/colder conditions in the winter. Satomi from Seed Engei told me she keeps her greenhouse that her goeringii are in at 50F to 90F, but she said she moves them to her second greenhouse that can get to 36F to help initiate spikes. Andrew from MysteryGardenStore suggests nothing lower than 40F.


For light:


Yea I'm finding light is another sort of muddy area for these plants outside of substrate/potting media. I think variety also has effect on light, like with Neofinetia falcata. As an example, the Cym. sinense I have is called 'Goldeon Da Mao', which has the 'Zhong Tou' type variegation. You can see it on Tenshin's website on their Cymbidium Terms page, but the variegation is a yellow saturated leaf with green tips on green slightly on the edges. So since there's not a lot of green and it has wider leaves, this plant don't take as much light as my Cym. goeringii.


However, my Cym. goeringii variety name is 'Tenshin', which makes an atypical orange flower, and I think it's said that different colored flower varieties don't need the same light as regular green flowered Cym. goeringii. I can't remember if it's less light or more light, someone with more knowledge than me probably knows. It has very slight "claw" variegation at most, but that's not as big a factor as the plant having an atypical colored flower.



I think something we sort forget about when it comes to a lot of discussing orchid culture is that there's

• the super optimal culture, where you're going to be taking plants to shows/contests to try and win
• the optimal culture, where you're giving the plants the best conditions you can
• the baseline culture, where you're meeting the needs of the plants to where they're able to grow and bloom without much issue
• the product line culture, where you're trying to produce many healthy plants to sell wholesale

I think all of that gets kind of lost sometimes, as we all have different goals for what we're going with our plants.

EDIT: Hmmm, I guess I wasn't supposed to quote your reply, myhappyrotter? Well, whatever.

 

[alecStewart1]

First thing that comes to mind: Viruses. If you have the means, then I would highly, highly recommend that you test for at least the 2 most common (CymbV and ORSV). Tests are readily available in the US and several other parts of the world.

I meant to ask more about this: where would you buy these kits in the US? Last I looked I could only find tests...from a vendor in Australia. I mean, could be farther away, but if there's a known vendor in the US that has this kits available that would be great.

 

[mrhappyrotter]

I meant to ask more about this: where would you buy these kits in the US? Last I looked I could only find tests...from a vendor in Australia. I mean, could be farther away, but if there's a known vendor in the US that has this kits available that would be great.

Agdia is the most common one I've heard of and it's what I use. https://orders.agdia.com/immunostrip-for-cymmv-and-orsv-isk-13301

 

[Jmoney]

Agdia raised their prices for 2024. A 25 pack will cost a little over 7 bucks a test. I have not had issues "batch" testing since I have not come across credible evidence that you will get false positives with agdia with excess tissue amounts. Of course if you have a positive then it then becomes an exercise in frustration to find the plant(s) that were virused.

 

[alecStewart1]

The viral and bacteria stuff always freaks me out (and also other newer people I imagine). If I were to guess, it's not very common to get virus infected plants from well known vendors, but it is possible, and that's why you should test instead of looking at imagine on the internet.

Because from looking on the internet, the most notable symptom is smaller yield and noticeable black spots all over leaves. But the problem there is that spots could just be from excess light exposure. I've seen a few Neofinetia for sale from well-known and recommended vendors that have some kind of spotting, but it seem like a lot of that is from light exposure and not viral infections. But, again, maybe even some good vendors slip up and wind up selling your plants that are infected. Only one way to find out.

 

[Jmoney]

I would say it is VERY easy to get virus infected new plants. I admittedly get more plants than I should and I have had at least 15 positives in the past 2 years. none with symptoms. that's a scary thought. whether one should care, that's up for debate. I choose to care, at least for now. I don't fault a vendor for sending a healthy appearing plant that harbors virus, not practical to test commercially. but many vendors out there will not care if your purchase is virused, so if it means something to you it should be asked ahead of the purchase.

virus in neos seems much less common, much as in paphs and phrags. they can certainly get virus though, just as the slippers can.

 

[alecStewart1]

I would say it is VERY easy to get virus infected new plants. I admittedly get more plants than I should and I have had at least 15 positives in the past 2 years. none with symptoms. that's a scary thought. whether one should care, that's up for debate. I choose to care, at least for now. I don't fault a vendor for sending a healthy appearing plant that harbors virus, not practical to test commercially. but many vendors out there will not care if your purchase is virused, so if it means something to you it should be asked ahead of the purchase.

virus in neos seems much less common, much as in paphs and phrags. they can certainly get virus though, just as the slippers can.

Well..peachy. I just bought 5 tests for the 5 Asian Cymbidiums I'm about to have. Probably should've sucked it up and got the 25 count, but we'll see how these 5 tests go. I think the most nerve racking thing is the fact when you can't see any symptoms.

I've meant to ask the Kasahara's about their policy on virused plants, as I'm seeing Satomi put up a lot of Japanese variety Cymbidiums up on Ebay. I imagine there's not really anything they can do about it, besides maybe a refund.

 

[alecStewart1]

On a more cheerful / humorous topic, I recently decided to test this one vendor on Etsy: CymbidiumUS. Specially because they have this one variety of ensifolium called (in English) "Puple Moon." I've shared photos of this plant they have on OrchidBoard, but I'll share them here as well.
Now this is terribly photoshopped. Like these are really bad. Luckily, the plant is fairly inexpensive (compared to most). The plant I received doesn't appear to be starting blooms for the summer, or at least none yet. It does have the fu lun variegation, so we're 1 of 2 so far. Except this 2nd photo (lol-purple-moon-2.jpg) isn't fu lun variegation.


I'll post pictures of the plant I got later. If once it blooms it has purple-ish flowers, hey, sick. If not, *wew* I am not leaving a nice review on their Etsy store. We'll see how this plant fairs.

 

[Jmoney]

Well..peachy. I just bought 5 tests for the 5 Asian Cymbidiums I'm about to have. Probably should've sucked it up and got the 25 count, but we'll see how these 5 tests go. I think the most nerve racking thing is the fact when you can't see any symptoms.

I've meant to ask the Kasahara's about their policy on virused plants, as I'm seeing Satomi put up a lot of Japanese variety Cymbidiums up on Ebay. I imagine there's not really anything they can do about it, besides maybe a refund.

many vendors will refund/replace virused plants.