Paphs. not opening fully . . .

[NeoNJ]

I have a number of Paphs in spike/bud....and what I'm noticing is that the flowers are not opening fully ....the Dorsal is NOT fully erect. Anyone know what is causing this .... ? I had read I think that this may be related to low humidity levels .... but I'm not sure ....

 

[NYEric]

No photo, no helpee!

 

[Marc]

How long are they open, I've noticed that after I would consider a flower to be open it straightens out quite a bit in the first few weeks.

This also has to do with the ovary growing a bit longer while the flower is allready open.

 

[NeoNJ]

No photo, no helpee!

Thanks for your nasty, arrogant comment !!!

 

[NYEric]

I did not mean to be nasty or arrogant. It is easier to make an educated guess at the solution if you send a photo. the answar might be that the plants need to be staked, or as suggested above the blooms may have just opened and will progress, or that there is insufficient humidity. Sorry you found exception with my response.

 

[Ernie]

Don't mind NYEric, he's just being silly.

The cells in flowers rely on hydraulics to open the flower. Water helps cells expand to turgor. Not enough water (either humidity or via the roots), and the flowers may not open fully. Like we've said in the humidity thread, humidity might not a big deal as long as you have healthy roots and are watering properly.

The flowers not opening fully could be a symptom that something's not quite right. Either your humidity is too low AND/OR you have poor roots AND/OR you are not watering properly (frequency, amount, etc).

It could also be the nature of specific hybrids/clones/breeding trends in question.

More info might be helpful (potting mix, water source/type, watering frequency, pot type (plastic, clay), fertilizing scheme, etc). As would a picture of the flowers in question and maybe a picture of your plants' roots. The more we know, the more we can help.

 

[likespaphs]

Thanks for your nasty, arrogant comment !!!

d'oh!
you don't know Eric, do you?
one of the problems with this internet thing is that one can't hear tone....:viking:

 

[jjkOC]

Maybe not enough humidity in the air around the bud? I noticed that when I started using a cool mist humidifier that the flowers seemed to extend petals and "open" more fully. Hope this helps!

 

[NeoNJ]

Don't mind NYEric, he's just being silly.

The cells in flowers rely on hydraulics to open the flower. Water helps cells expand to turgor. Not enough water (either humidity or via the roots), and the flowers may not open fully. Like we've said in the humidity thread, humidity might not a big deal as long as you have healthy roots and are watering properly.

The flowers not opening fully could be a symptom that something's not quite right. Either your humidity is too low AND/OR you have poor roots AND/OR you are not watering properly (frequency, amount, etc).

It could also be the nature of specific hybrids/clones/breeding trends in question.

More info might be helpful (potting mix, water source/type, watering frequency, pot type (plastic, clay), fertilizing scheme, etc). As would a picture of the flowers in question and maybe a picture of your plants' roots. The more we know, the more we can help.

Ok, well perhaps I'm being a bit prematue, since the 2 Paphs in question just opened a day ago, and like someone said, it may indeed take a week for the Dorsal to fully become upright.......

The first orchid is a Paph. venustum, and the second is a dark vini-colored maudiae type Paph.

I haven't grown Paphs in a few years and don't recall this happening ......

 

[NeoNJ]

re: Paphs not opening fully ....

Maybe not enough humidity in the air around the bud? I noticed that when I started using a cool mist humidifier that the flowers seemed to extend petals and "open" more fully. Hope this helps!

Hmmmmmm.....that could be, because these 2 Paphs in quesion are not near a Cool-mist Humidifier ......

I would love to know what type of Cool-Mist humidifer you use --- I have 2 and neither seem to really do to much to increase the Humidity *(I have one of two of my three windowsills where I grow my Orchids)*

 

[NeoNJ]

d'oh!
you don't know Eric, do you?
one of the problems with this internet thing is that one can't hear tone....:viking:

Yeah. Ok, Well thats why its not a good idea to make comments like that in the first place on forums like this !

D'oh!

 

[Ross]

Just hang in there and listen to Ernie's advice. He has experience growing great plants indoors. With experience, you can successfully grow and flower Paphs in the home without high humidity. Every AOS flower quality award my flowers have received so far came from Paphs grown in the house WITHOUT ANY ATTEMPT TO ADD EXTRA HUMIDITY.

Grow the roots well and the plant and flowers will take care of themselves. With your concern for detail I have no doubt you can be successful growing Paphs in your environment.

 

[goldenrose]

Welcome NeoNJ, glad you joined us!
You can use the search feature on the forum, just put in cool mist humidifiers & you'll get about 6 different threads. This was our most recent discussion, I believe -
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18808&highlight=cool+mist+humidifiers.

PS. Eric did apologize. He's a character, give it a chance, he grows on most of us! Your right, that's a problem with any forum, you don't know the person & we need to think a bit before typing. We tease each other quite a bit, don't give up on us, there's ALOT of value information & experience that can be had here!

 

[jjkOC]

Hi NeoNJ, I think Goldenrose's suggestion of checking out various threads on humidifiers is a very good one.

For me, I just bought an inexpensive one from Target for $30 (Safety 1st Ultrasonic 360 Degree).

I think the extra humidity helps my plants because I live a little inland in southern California, where the air can get really dry. I grow on my windowsills too, and most of my Paphs are doing well with just humidity trays and misting the top of the medium every morning.

For the humidifier, I use distilled/RO water so that I don't get any crusty mineral deposits in the device or on my plants.

Good luck and hope all goes well with your plants

Hmmmmmm.....that could be, because these 2 Paphs in quesion are not near a Cool-mist Humidifier ......

I would love to know what type of Cool-Mist humidifer you use --- I have 2 and neither seem to really do to much to increase the Humidity *(I have one of two of my three windowsills where I grow my Orchids)*

 

[NeoNJ]

Thanks everyone for your great advice ..... I guess I do get a bid "panicky" when it comes to Humidity levels. I have great natural light levels, plus I have supplemental lighting (mainly because I grow Angraecum and Aerangis) but my window exposures are Southeast and Southwest.....

I just am not seeing a big difference in Humidity levels with using Cool-Mist Humidifers ----->>> except Overnight! In the morning, the Humidity levels are 60-65%. During the day, I can barely get them to 50%. So I have resorted to "misting", which I'm not big on .....

I use DISTILLED water exclusively for all of my Orchids, and in the Humdifiers.

 

[Ernie]

Humidity almost always rises at night. Some mumbo jumbo about dew points or absolute/relative humidity or something. Ask Tom Skilling on WGN- he'll over-explain it for you.

You're wise using "good water" in the humidifiers. The manual says you can use tap water because they want you to wreck the unit and buy a new one.

Your issue is that your volume of air you're trying to humidify is too large. Just give in and give your den or spare bedroom to the orchids. Take out all the furniture, and go NUTS. Garages and basements work too!

You also need to get lots more plants and group them together to help localize some of the humidity- seriously! They "breath out" moisture through their leaves (transpiration). Sorta like having a bunch of people in an elevator.

You should see NYEric's collection (he has a crazy thread here). No one knows where he sleeps, sits, cooks, or eats because every surface of his apartment is COVERED with plants! Resistance is futile!

Anyway, keep it up. I think you know more than you're giving yourself credit for.

 

[Rick]

The ability of a humidifier is based on the volume of air you are trying to humidify, and how high your are trying to get it.

At work we have test rooms that are about 10X10 with a drop ceiling at 8ft. (about 800 cuft). The drop ceiling is pretty leaky as is the gap under the door.

The testing we do has trays of little cups full of water that are supposed to have identical temperature in all cups and all tests (+/1 1degree C). With a humidity of less than 50% there is as much as a 3-5 degree C difference between sealed (with tight fitting lids) and open cups. This differential is mostly gone at 70% humidity.

We started with one of those $30 drugstore units because it said it could handle a 144 square foot room (but lucky to get up to 50% in the winter).
We ended up with 4 of these units per test room, which we were constantly filling and changing wicks. Eventually we went to the consul type units on wheels. Much more manageable and get the rooms to the requisite 70%. I think those big units run up to $200.

You can see by David's post from Australia that moving away from the window sill, and using a big sealed tank, he was pretty cheaply able to get humidity and ease of maintenance.

I know of another member that enclosed a bakers rack with plastic sheets, add lights to the shelves, and got away with one of those drugstore units just fine.

 

[NeoNJ]

Re: Humidity . . .

Humidity almost always rises at night. Some mumbo jumbo about dew points or absolute/relative humidity or something. Ask Tom Skilling on WGN- he'll over-explain it for you.

You're wise using "good water" in the humidifiers. The manual says you can use tap water because they want you to wreck the unit and buy a new one.

Your issue is that your volume of air you're trying to humidify is too large. Just give in and give your den or spare bedroom to the orchids. Take out all the furniture, and go NUTS. Garages and basements work too!

You also need to get lots more plants and group them together to help localize some of the humidity- seriously! They "breath out" moisture through their leaves (transpiration). Sorta like having a bunch of people in an elevator.

You should see NYEric's collection (he has a crazy thread here). No one knows where he sleeps, sits, cooks, or eats because every surface of his apartment is COVERED with plants! Resistance is futile!

Anyway, keep it up. I think you know more than you're giving yourself credit for.

Hey Ernie:

Well all of my orchids are grown on 3 bedroom Windowsills - which are quite large - One of the windowsills has supplemental lighting (3 CFL fixtures dangling over the plants) the other 2 windowsills have natural light (SW exposure). It took awhile, but a few years ago I managed to get a Paph. Julius and a Paph Berenice to bloom ......'patience' is the key.

Wish I did have an "Orchid Room"..LOL....but there isn't a spare room in this apartment/condo. So you make do with what you have and hope you can BLOOM an orchid. They will all Grow here, but I want to Bloom them !

I can't possibly give them the High Humidity levels they are used to in the wild. Most of my Paphs are species .....I have only a scattering of Hybrids.

 

[NeoNJ]

RE: Humidity....

The ability of a humidifier is based on the volume of air you are trying to humidify, and how high your are trying to get it.

At work we have test rooms that are about 10X10 with a drop ceiling at 8ft. (about 800 cuft). The drop ceiling is pretty leaky as is the gap under the door.

The testing we do has trays of little cups full of water that are supposed to have identical temperature in all cups and all tests (+/1 1degree C). With a humidity of less than 50% there is as much as a 3-5 degree C difference between sealed (with tight fitting lids) and open cups. This differential is mostly gone at 70% humidity.

We started with one of those $30 drugstore units because it said it could handle a 144 square foot room (but lucky to get up to 50% in the winter).
We ended up with 4 of these units per test room, which we were constantly filling and changing wicks. Eventually we went to the consul type units on wheels. Much more manageable and get the rooms to the requisite 70%. I think those big units run up to $200.

You can see by David's post from Australia that moving away from the window sill, and using a big sealed tank, he was pretty cheaply able to get humidity and ease of maintenance.

I know of another member that enclosed a bakers rack with plastic sheets, add lights to the shelves, and got away with one of those drugstore units just fine.

Hey Rick:

Well, that bakers rack with the plastic sheeting is similar to my one windowsill which is covered with plastic and a drape (which is taped to each side of the wall to enclose the windowsill) - On that windowsill is a cool-mist humidifer + a oscillating fan. Overnight I get 65% Humidity.

 

[likespaphs]

Humidity almost always rises at night. Some mumbo jumbo about dew points or absolute/relative humidity or something....

i thought it was because temps usually fall at night and air can hold less water the colder it gets and whatnot
then again, i ain't got no real idea