Paphiopedilum delenatii albescent?!

[DrLeslieEe]

I saw a similar flower while visiting Floradise Orchids and before I could get too excited Steve told me it was due to how warm the greenhouse got that year. While his words applied to his plant, I wonder how this awarded plant would flower under warmer and cooler conditions. It’s lovely!

What was flower like without the heat stress? An album?

 

[Ernesto]

What was flower like without the heat stress? An album?

I haven’t gone back to see it rebloom I would guess it would have more anthocyanin though.

 

[big923cattleya]

Wouldn’t you think with a couple of hundred awards, thousands of people growing delenatii as an alba, regular or dark rose pink type that this would have happened or have been noticed before now?
Plus so many with any anthocyanin in the pouch, wouldn’t the effects of heat stress been notice before?
Look how dark the ‘Dunkel’ clones are.

 

[Ernesto]

Wouldn’t you think with a couple of hundred awards, thousands of people growing delenatii as an alba, regular or dark rose pink type that this would have happened or have been noticed before now?
Plus so many with any anthocyanin in the pouch, wouldn’t the effects of heat stress been notice before?
Look how dark the ‘Dunkel’ clones are.

I could imagine a scenario in which the albescent phenotype is not only a result of phenotypic plasticity, but also that this plasticity is something genetically controlled. Perhaps plants with the trait pass as the normal color form when grown under certain conditions? Or perhaps the trait is polygenic and only shows up when the right combinations of alleles are present?

All this is just speculation though the simplest explanation could be that it’s just a rare recessive mutation that has yet to be propagated en masse. I hope the owner of this plant grows it well and can eventually self it

 

[BrucherT]

I saw a similar flower while visiting Floradise Orchids and before I could get too excited Steve told me it was due to how warm the greenhouse got that year. While his words applied to his plant, I wonder how this awarded plant would flower under warmer and cooler conditions. It’s lovely!

Hmm... I've sure seen plenty of delenatii bloomed in warm greenhouses and never one like this.

 

[DrLeslieEe]

Wouldn’t you think with a couple of hundred awards, thousands of people growing delenatii as an alba, regular or dark rose pink type that this would have happened or have been noticed before now?
Plus so many with any anthocyanin in the pouch, wouldn’t the effects of heat stress been notice before?
Look how dark the ‘Dunkel’ clones are.

Yes definitely… that’s why I’m shocked to see this color and ran to ask the taxonomists!

 

[Roth]

Wouldn’t you think with a couple of hundred awards, thousands of people growing delenatii as an alba, regular or dark rose pink type that this would have happened or have been noticed before now?
Plus so many with any anthocyanin in the pouch, wouldn’t the effects of heat stress been notice before?
Look how dark the ‘Dunkel’ clones are.

Not quite because until recently such plants would have been discarded or not used as parents. People wanted albinos, or good, sharp colors. A color like that would not even have been mentioned in the 90's or early 2000's.

There were quite a lot of very pale ones in some delenatii batches I have to say in Vietnam, and one person I asked said that it is not so rare to have extremely pale pouches in some colonies. Would be worth to know if it is a 'division' as politically we say, or a seedling with parents...

 

[David B]

Today we awarded a new color variation of delenatii … white (faintly striated blush pink) with a normal colored staminode. I’ve never seen one before.

Ok for those not there , here are two important thoughts on this award not detailed in the desc. the substance says firm, but of note to me was that the flower segment tissue was very thick and much heavier that normal and like soft leather to the touch. Not noted was that the flowers had the distinct fragrance normal in delenatii and this was reassuring, as a hybrid would have wiped this out.

 

[GuRu]

Lovely flower, Leslie. I like it.

.................I’m curious what others think?

We see fma. semialba or albecent at many other orchids, why not at Paph.delenatii.

 

[DrLeslieEe]

Ok for those not there , here are two important thoughts on this award not detailed in the desc. the substance says firm, but of note to me was that the flower segment tissue was very thick and much heavier that normal and like soft leather to the touch. Not noted was that the flowers had the distinct fragrance normal in delenatii and this was reassuring, as a hybrid would have wiped this out.

Good points David (who was on my team).

 

[Ernesto]

Interesting Misty Dell using delenatii var. dunkel posted in the Paph and Phrag Facebook group— looks very delenatii-y, save for a lightly pigmented pouch. If it has this little pigment using the dunkel variety, would it be out of the question for a Misty Dell using the regular color form of delenatii to appear like a delenatii with a white pouch?

 

[DrLeslieEe]

Interesting Misty Dell using delenatii var. dunkel posted in the Paph and Phrag Facebook group— looks very delenatii-y, save for a lightly pigmented pouch. If it has this little pigment using the dunkel variety, would it be out of the question for a Misty Dell using the regular color form of delenatii to appear like a delenatii with a white pouch?

There are many delenatii hybrids that look like delenatii as in this case. However the staminode here screams hybrid and doesn’t have the ‘H’ pattern of the true delenatii (like this albescent form).

Also the pouch here in this hybrid example has the frenestrations (lines and indents) that the delenatii pouch doesn’t (which is a smooth oval egg shape).

 

[DrLeslieEe]

Wouldn’t you think with a couple of hundred awards, thousands of people growing delenatii as an alba, regular or dark rose pink type that this would have happened or have been noticed before now?
Plus so many with any anthocyanin in the pouch, wouldn’t the effects of heat stress been notice before?
Look how dark the ‘Dunkel’ clones are.

I was just over at the owner's house to help pollinate the plant by selfing. He said that the pouch opened up very light blush pink and then after a few days turned white. Very interesting to know.

I think the breeding of the delenatii from the beginning was to get a darker pink from the initially offered light pink flowers (since only one plant in France was available and those were selfed and sibbed). Because of the strive to get darker pink pouches, any light pink pouches were cast aside, unless it was an alba (which was discovered later). These cast-offs were the ones that were possibly seen by Olaf and Xavier over 20-30 years ago, but were not bred as they were not desirable. As a result, they might have disappeared from the breeding lines.

As Ernesto pointed out, it could have been a mutation that occurred and produced this coloration. Let's see if the selfing produces all same albescents or a mixture of colors (hopefully pod takes).

I also saved the pollen to breed onto an alba delenatii (in the next season, as delenatii season for this year is finished) to secure the trait.

 

[DrLeslieEe]

I saw a similar flower while visiting Floradise Orchids and before I could get too excited Steve told me it was due to how warm the greenhouse got that year. While his words applied to his plant, I wonder how this awarded plant would flower under warmer and cooler conditions. It’s lovely!

This color is so similar to the one here. Could you ask Floradise if they have a pic of this specific plant’s blooms when not stressed? I’m curious.

 

[Happypaphy7]

In that photo of the nursery, I see one other delenatii with a pink pouch. I doubt this has to do with the temperature.
It could just be one odd case.
Not delenatii but two of delenatii primary hybrids I had did this.
Magic Lantern made with delenatii var. dunkel that normally bloomed with a dark pink flower produced two flowers on one ocassaion where one was normal dark pink and one was very pale. I posted here for those interested and some asked if there were two plants in the pot.
Deperle, made with primulinum var. purpurascne (?) and delenatii var. dunkel that made pink flowers for years but one year it gave me a white flower. A "hickup" can happen apparently.

 

[Guldal]

I saw a similar flower while visiting Floradise Orchids and before I could get too excited Steve told me it was due to how warm the greenhouse got that year. While his words applied to his plant, I wonder how this awarded plant would flower under warmer and cooler conditions. It’s lovely!

Is what you propose, Ernesto: a semi-album in a sauna?!

 

[Ozpaph]

If it was pink, I don’t think so. The new color form was attractive and needed to be put into the award system. Form was not bad and just ok.

So that wouldnt get a quality award in Oz. There are separate awards for 'cultural significance' or botanical merit.
http://www.orchidsaustralia.com.au/AOC/index.php/judging-awards2

 

[DrLeslieEe]

Many orchids in all systems may not necessarily should have gotten awards but I guess you gotta be there lol.