Paph. Krull's Worthy Web 'Aldarra', FCC/AOS

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ehanes7612

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LOL, you shouldn't take everything they say as the literal truth unless you know them fairly well. This comment was probably said as a compliment rather than a negative comment.

I actually took it as a critical evaluation, he seemed pretty serious and that's what his opinion was ...i never saw it as a negative comment and i didnt imply it was a negative comment....of course i always hold the reservation that i misheard him
 

paphreek

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Congratulations on a well deserved award!

Candace - no kidding! That's how it has been for me 99% of the time over the last 25 years. You either have to drive hundreds of miles to another judging center or ......

Anyone in Minnesota has to drive hundreds of miles to get to ANY judging center! :mad:
 

John M

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That is spectacular, Scott! Woohoo! Congratulations! :clap::clap::clap: You really brought out the best of this plant with your culture. You must feel very satisfied with your efforts!
 

John M

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Originally Posted by ehanes7612
i couldve sworn i heard one of the judges kept saying the dorsal was too big (on the Krull's Worthy Web)...

LOL, you shouldn't take everything they say as the literal truth unless you know them fairly well. This comment was probably said as a compliment rather than a negative comment.

It wouldn't be the first time a judge (so-called expert), failed to grasp the concept of breeding for certain traits. Example: If you want a big pouch, add micranthum; if you want a big dorsal, add charlesworthii; if you want lots of spots, add sukhakulii, etc. Don't forget that this plant; http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13050&highlight=naugle lost out on an FCC by 1/10th of a point because a judge figured a primary micranthum hybrid shouldn't have such a big pouch!:confused: Duh! He refused to adjust his low score to come into line with the other judges much higher scores. This kept the average score down; thus, preventing the FCC award!
 

slippertalker

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Of course the judge knew the breeding influence of Paph charlesworthii, otherwise he wouldn't have given it an FCC.......his comments were like calling a Phrag Jason Fischer too red, stating the obvious in a joking manner.
 

John M

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Of course the judge knew the breeding influence of Paph charlesworthii, otherwise he wouldn't have given it an FCC.......his comments were like calling a Phrag Jason Fischer too red, stating the obvious in a joking manner.

So, what was the score given by the judge that uttered the comment in question? Do you know that his score was an FCC? Of course, I realise that the comment could've been a joke. I thought that was a given bit of fact that everyone was keeping in mind as they read the thread because it had already been discussed. However, my point was that it was not necessarily guaranteed to be a joke. There are judges out there with poor knowledge; or who have "issues" with certain exhibitors; or just with the very concept of awarding FCC's. There are people (in general), as well as judges that like Paphs and those that don't. Some don't like big, flat, round dorsals; some do.

As someone who won about 50 awards (before I quit exhibiting) and who lost out on just as many by just a fraction of a point, I have first hand experience of when a judge low-balled a score just because they didn't like a certain trait, regardless of whether or not that trait is legitimate and is recognised by the AOS judging system as desirable. I also received awards on plants that I felt should not have been pointed. I brought them because they were helping to secure something else in the box! I should also say that before I attended each judging, as well as having tons of knowledge and personal experience myself, I also researched my plants in the AQ. As a result of my own knowledge and information from the AQ, I had an excellent idea of how good my plants were and their relative chances of being pointed and the award that they might get.

I am aware of a number of people who became judges because they disagreed with the standards used and what was currently being awarded. So, they decided to not just complain; but, to join the system and have some influence over it by participating in the process. That's a good thing.....unless they go rogue and just do their own thing, once they have the accredation. In such cases, they seem to forget that it is not THEIR judging system, operating on their rules. There are standards to follow, even if they disagree with them. If they want to facilitate change, then, they should make a formal proposal and go through the process of pushing the AOS to accept their ideas of what is ideal to become part of the standards that all judges should use to make their award determinations. That is the only way to maintain awards quality and fairness for all throughout the system.

However, once they become judges, they simply begin applying their own personal likes and dislikes to the way that they judge....forgetting that there is a universal standard that all the AOS judges, including themselves, should be adhering to, untill such time as that standard is formally changed.

Not trying to be difficult here; but, I do disagree with your Jason Fischer analogy. Red Phrags are popular; but, not everyone likes them. Even some pretty strong negative comments have been made against red besseae-like hybrids, here on ST. There certainly must be judges that have a hard time getting excited over another red Phrag. Unless those judges are saints, it's hard to expect them to point a red Phrag the same way a red Phrag loving judge would. They should both produce the same score, based on the accepted AOS standards; but, in real life, personal bias comes into play in these situations.

There's no reason to expect that at least some personal bias could not come into play in the case of Paph with a huge, round dorsal sepal. Therefore, it IS possible for the comment to have been a joke...AND it is possible that it was a serious comment. We don't know yet which it was and whether or not it affected the score given to the plant. If the judge's score was comparable or higher to the scores of the other judges, then, you are correct...and that's a good thing. If it was the lowest score, then, it was a serious, negative critisism which was ignorant and inappropriate, considering the parentage of this plant.
 

suss16

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Damn, (can I say that?) - I guess I will find out. I would clear out a bench of my Phals to have that growing in my greenhouse. Congrats! Great growing! And yeah, you want a top notch seedling and are willing to pay a few bucks, visit the KS booth.
 

ehanes7612

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It may have been a joke but he kept saying it over and over again and no one was laughing....they were listening to him but they seemed pensive because he kept saying it...then they continued to talk about it for a few minutes, then they voted....it just seemed like part of the process...i was glad to actually see their process....and the strong human element to judging
 

rdlsreno

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I saw that in WOC Scott but I ignored it.:sob: Yours is awesome! Congratulation!

Ramon:)
 

labskaus

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These vinicolor-Maudiae-type by charlesworthii crosses seem be a bit of a fashion lately. I've seen a couple of these, especially from Taiwan.

Your's is spectactular and exceptionally good. Good growing too, congrats!
 
E

Ernie

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Nice!!! Love it. I buy this type of breeding whenever I see it (missed this batch!).

Yeah, vinis by chuckworth is a good line! How about chuckworth sandowiae (album) X an album Maudiae type to get this in green, white, and yellow? Might take multiple generations, but I'd expect great things.
 

slippertalker

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So, what was the score given by the judge that uttered the comment in question? Do you know that his score was an FCC? Of course, I realise that the comment could've been a joke. I thought that was a given bit of fact that everyone was keeping in mind as they read the thread because it had already been discussed. However, my point was that it was not necessarily guaranteed to be a joke. There are judges out there with poor knowledge; or who have "issues" with certain exhibitors; or just with the very concept of awarding FCC's. There are people (in general), as well as judges that like Paphs and those that don't. Some don't like big, flat, round dorsals; some do.

As someone who won about 50 awards (before I quit exhibiting) and who lost out on just as many by just a fraction of a point, I have first hand experience of when a judge low-balled a score just because they didn't like a certain trait, regardless of whether or not that trait is legitimate and is recognised by the AOS judging system as desirable. I also received awards on plants that I felt should not have been pointed. I brought them because they were helping to secure something else in the box! I should also say that before I attended each judging, as well as having tons of knowledge and personal experience myself, I also researched my plants in the AQ. As a result of my own knowledge and information from the AQ, I had an excellent idea of how good my plants were and their relative chances of being pointed and the award that they might get.

I am aware of a number of people who became judges because they disagreed with the standards used and what was currently being awarded. So, they decided to not just complain; but, to join the system and have some influence over it by participating in the process. That's a good thing.....unless they go rogue and just do their own thing, once they have the accredation. In such cases, they seem to forget that it is not THEIR judging system, operating on their rules. There are standards to follow, even if they disagree with them. If they want to facilitate change, then, they should make a formal proposal and go through the process of pushing the AOS to accept their ideas of what is ideal to become part of the standards that all judges should use to make their award determinations. That is the only way to maintain awards quality and fairness for all throughout the system.

However, once they become judges, they simply begin applying their own personal likes and dislikes to the way that they judge....forgetting that there is a universal standard that all the AOS judges, including themselves, should be adhering to, untill such time as that standard is formally changed.

Not trying to be difficult here; but, I do disagree with your Jason Fischer analogy. Red Phrags are popular; but, not everyone likes them. Even some pretty strong negative comments have been made against red besseae-like hybrids, here on ST. There certainly must be judges that have a hard time getting excited over another red Phrag. Unless those judges are saints, it's hard to expect them to point a red Phrag the same way a red Phrag loving judge would. They should both produce the same score, based on the accepted AOS standards; but, in real life, personal bias comes into play in these situations.

There's no reason to expect that at least some personal bias could not come into play in the case of Paph with a huge, round dorsal sepal. Therefore, it IS possible for the comment to have been a joke...AND it is possible that it was a serious comment. We don't know yet which it was and whether or not it affected the score given to the plant. If the judge's score was comparable or higher to the scores of the other judges, then, you are correct...and that's a good thing. If it was the lowest score, then, it was a serious, negative critisism which was ignorant and inappropriate, considering the parentage of this plant.

To answer your question, I believe the judge in question gave the plant an 88 which was certainly fair. Also, this particular judge tends to have strong opinions about many things and isn't shy about expressing them. The others on his team would take his comments in that context. The plant received an 89.5 which rounds up to a 90. Remember that the scores have to be within a 6 point range....

The judging score sheet is pretty well defined, but the ability to apply the standards is the art of judging. Many plants don't fit perfectly into the system but are quite deserving of awards.
 

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