Merit of adding Mycorrhizae to potting medium
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naoki
Well-Known Member
Fairbanks, Alaska, not much else to do!oke:
Haha, that is true, no orchid show or orchid shop to visit!
naoki
Well-Known Member
A couple quick things to add.
I was reading a Japanese book about Cymbidium goeringii (this one), and it mentioned the results of Korean University researcher. He isolated Tulasnella repent from some Cymbidium, and inoculated seedlings from flask and compared them to the control (no inoculation). After 1 year, the size of the inoculated seedlings were 1.1-1.5x larger. More significantly, rate of developing certain disease was < 1/5. Different variety of Cymbidium appear to have responded differently (1 variety got more benefits). I don't have the access to the original article, so I'm not sure about the statistical significance. But it seems to be a huge difference. He commercialized the product, which is called Oh-chid, but I haven't found any info about it. This product could infect fairly distant orchids (e.g. Phalaenopsis (Sedinera) japonica).
After looking around more info, the researcher is Kee Yoeup Paek (link to his ResearchGate) from Chungbuk University (Korea). I found a link to the abstract of their Chinese article about Oh-chid trial.
Another interesting thing is from a relatively recent article:
Sathiyadash, K. et al. 2012, Mycorrhizal association and morphology in orchids. Journal of Plant Interactions 7(3): 238-247.
They looked at 31 adult wild or cultivated orchids (all photosynthetic, some terrestrial, but majority is epiphytic). All orchids including epiphytes show strong association with fungi. The study included Acampae, Aerides, Bulbophyllum, Coelogyne, Cymbidium, Dendrobium, Epidendrum, Eulophia, Gastrochilus, Habenaria, Luisia, Malaxis, Oberonia, Polystachya, Rhyncostylis, Robiequetia, Satyrium, Sirhookeriana, Spathoglottis, Vanda, Vanilla. I'm guessing that non-Indian orchids are under cultivation (they didn't mention which one is from wild and which one is from cultivation). The infection rate doesn't seem to be drastically low in non-indian species, which is a bit surprising to me.
Another interesting thing is that infected region is patchy in roots of epiphytes. Here is the quote:
"All epiphytic species occurred in association with accumulated organic debris, mosses, and other plants. Aerial roots were colonized only when they were in contact with the substrate, while the roots which were not in contact were free from colonization."
It makes sense, but this might be a part of the reason why mounted and potted orchids may require a bit different fertigation scheme.
I was reading a Japanese book about Cymbidium goeringii (this one), and it mentioned the results of Korean University researcher. He isolated Tulasnella repent from some Cymbidium, and inoculated seedlings from flask and compared them to the control (no inoculation). After 1 year, the size of the inoculated seedlings were 1.1-1.5x larger. More significantly, rate of developing certain disease was < 1/5. Different variety of Cymbidium appear to have responded differently (1 variety got more benefits). I don't have the access to the original article, so I'm not sure about the statistical significance. But it seems to be a huge difference. He commercialized the product, which is called Oh-chid, but I haven't found any info about it. This product could infect fairly distant orchids (e.g. Phalaenopsis (Sedinera) japonica).
After looking around more info, the researcher is Kee Yoeup Paek (link to his ResearchGate) from Chungbuk University (Korea). I found a link to the abstract of their Chinese article about Oh-chid trial.
Another interesting thing is from a relatively recent article:
Sathiyadash, K. et al. 2012, Mycorrhizal association and morphology in orchids. Journal of Plant Interactions 7(3): 238-247.
They looked at 31 adult wild or cultivated orchids (all photosynthetic, some terrestrial, but majority is epiphytic). All orchids including epiphytes show strong association with fungi. The study included Acampae, Aerides, Bulbophyllum, Coelogyne, Cymbidium, Dendrobium, Epidendrum, Eulophia, Gastrochilus, Habenaria, Luisia, Malaxis, Oberonia, Polystachya, Rhyncostylis, Robiequetia, Satyrium, Sirhookeriana, Spathoglottis, Vanda, Vanilla. I'm guessing that non-Indian orchids are under cultivation (they didn't mention which one is from wild and which one is from cultivation). The infection rate doesn't seem to be drastically low in non-indian species, which is a bit surprising to me.
Another interesting thing is that infected region is patchy in roots of epiphytes. Here is the quote:
"All epiphytic species occurred in association with accumulated organic debris, mosses, and other plants. Aerial roots were colonized only when they were in contact with the substrate, while the roots which were not in contact were free from colonization."
It makes sense, but this might be a part of the reason why mounted and potted orchids may require a bit different fertigation scheme.
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I think the rapid drying is probably more significant.
While having the specific microorganisms for each plant would be ideal, I have to wonder just how necessary that is.
Speaking VERY generally, many of these plant-related microorganisms release a variety of chemicals that break down chitin and cellulose, releasing nutrients and sugars, auxins that stimulate growth, plus amino acids and who-knows-what else. If they do so in association with the plant, the plant will benefit.
Now, maybe the specificity is necessary for seed germination, and maybe the benefits of the association would be maximized if we had the "right one", but the benefits of these inoculants are there nonetheless.
Hahaha, need to go thru TSA.
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naoki
Well-Known Member
I agree, Ray, this stuff is interesting. I used to think that mycorrhizal fungi in cultivated orchids are unlikely, but I think it is probably not the case. Specificity of fungi-orchid relationship is still getting investigated. There was a paper about Cypripedium with narrow specificity (except C. califonicum). On the other hand, in some plants, you may observe narrow specificity in nature, but they are capable of using other fungi if there is no other choice. It is suspected that the fungi at the germination stage could be different from that of adult stage. In general, for seed germination, orchids seem to use a wider variety of fungi. At this stage, it is not mutualistic, and orchids are just eating fungi, so they don't have to be picky. But at the adult stage, they are expected to offer carbon to fungi, so they want to find a good partner who doesn't cheat.
Also, there may be a better fungus than what orchids generally associate with under cultivation. These may not be optimum for each species, but it may be better for wide range of orchids. I think Dr. Kee Yoeup Paek inoculated other orchids (Blettila and Neofinetia) in addition to Cymbidium with the fungi isolated from Cymbidium. There was no data presented, but it mentioned that there was a positive effects in all 3 hosts plants. These 3 orchids are all in Epidendroideae (Paphs are in Cypripedioideae), but they are fairly distantly related within Epidendroideae.
Well, people used to grow orchids with heavy application of fungicide as preventative measure and high dosage of P (generally negative effect on mycorrhizae formation, but I'm not sure if it is the case for orchid mycorrhizae), so we know that fungi is not "necessary" (unless you are growing non-photosynthetic orchids). But I think that there could be some fungi which can be used widely. 10-50% increase in growth rate isn't easy to achieve.
I don't know about the regulation part, Lance. Trichoderma seems to be marketed all over the world, though.
Also, there may be a better fungus than what orchids generally associate with under cultivation. These may not be optimum for each species, but it may be better for wide range of orchids. I think Dr. Kee Yoeup Paek inoculated other orchids (Blettila and Neofinetia) in addition to Cymbidium with the fungi isolated from Cymbidium. There was no data presented, but it mentioned that there was a positive effects in all 3 hosts plants. These 3 orchids are all in Epidendroideae (Paphs are in Cypripedioideae), but they are fairly distantly related within Epidendroideae.
Well, people used to grow orchids with heavy application of fungicide as preventative measure and high dosage of P (generally negative effect on mycorrhizae formation, but I'm not sure if it is the case for orchid mycorrhizae), so we know that fungi is not "necessary" (unless you are growing non-photosynthetic orchids). But I think that there could be some fungi which can be used widely. 10-50% increase in growth rate isn't easy to achieve.
I don't know about the regulation part, Lance. Trichoderma seems to be marketed all over the world, though.
I was referring to the idea of finding the actual fungi that a wild orchids associates with. To be able to import/export the living fungi would require a huge amount of pre research and proof that the living organism would not harm the importing countries environment. basically the same costs as registering a new pesticide.
Naoki, we need to know what these fungi are feeding to the plant so we can provide them instead.
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naoki
Well-Known Member
Lance, I'm sure it would be expensive to develop the commercial products, and maybe there isn't enough market. Maybe someone should try crowd funding.
I don't think the exchange between orchid and fungi is completely known, but the main part is water, P, and N. For example, Goodyera repens got 100 times more P with fungi than without fungi. This is a reason why high P will discourage the association (plants don't want to waste carbon from photosynthesis to fungi if there is enough nutrients). The article I linked earlier has some review of this topic. We do not seem to completely understand how protection against disease is done. But it could be competition between good and "bad" microbes (similar to the idea of effective microbes). Trichoderma eats some pathogenic fungi to give the protection, but the fungi for orchid mycorrhizae are mostly sporophytic (or mycorrhizal fungi of other plants) and they aren't that aggressive, I think.
I don't think the exchange between orchid and fungi is completely known, but the main part is water, P, and N. For example, Goodyera repens got 100 times more P with fungi than without fungi. This is a reason why high P will discourage the association (plants don't want to waste carbon from photosynthesis to fungi if there is enough nutrients). The article I linked earlier has some review of this topic. We do not seem to completely understand how protection against disease is done. But it could be competition between good and "bad" microbes (similar to the idea of effective microbes). Trichoderma eats some pathogenic fungi to give the protection, but the fungi for orchid mycorrhizae are mostly sporophytic (or mycorrhizal fungi of other plants) and they aren't that aggressive, I think.
So the form of N they provide is amino acids?
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naoki
Well-Known Member
I don't know about it. I'm guessing that nobody knows about it yet. Even in more commonly studied Arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi (=endomycorrhizae), it isn't completely known according to this wikipedia. The wikipedia page says that one model in AMF is that arginine may be used as the transport from outside into the fungi in the root, then N gets released as ammonium.
Most likely ammonium but I wont be surprised if amino acids are involved. Going back to where these plants mostly grow, thier roots are. crawling along moist humus soil
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Amino acids are a significant secretion in many of the microorganisms involved.
naoki
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure if we are talking about the same topic, Ray and Lance. I think gego is talking about the mechanism of how the plants and fungi communicate. Yes, they can release amino acids or more likely proteins which help nutrient uptake and degradation of organic matters through enzymatic reaction. And there are lots of evidence that plants, including orchids, can absorb amino acids. But that might not be the way how fungi and plants exchange goods at the peloton (the place where they are likely to communicate, here are photos). Similarly, the facts that some forms of N (or whatever mineral nutrients) is in the soil, and that roots can absorb them are just a part of the story. After the N moves from the surrounding region into the root cells, they have to be loaded to xylem, and they need to get distributed. Different forms of N has different efficiency at these other steps. It appears that in general NO3 is easier to transport in long distance (from root to leaves) than NH4.
Happypaphy7
Paphlover
I'm wondering if those fungi would stay alive in pots once artificially introduced?
I'm an indoor grower, so the humidity level is lower than greenhouse, so it might be even more difficult for them to stay alive.
As someone has already pointed out, I wonder how necessary it might be when plants are already being fertilized on a regular basis, other than the efficiency, which I assume will be much better with such relationship than via chemical fertilizers.
I'm an indoor grower, so the humidity level is lower than greenhouse, so it might be even more difficult for them to stay alive.
As someone has already pointed out, I wonder how necessary it might be when plants are already being fertilized on a regular basis, other than the efficiency, which I assume will be much better with such relationship than via chemical fertilizers.
Very good points, Naoki, but I am pretty sure that plants can- to some degree, get nitrogen from amino acids, as I figure they probably break down in the substrate, too, even if they aren't absorbed directly.
I think the reasons for applying the probiotics go well beyond nutrient sourcing or transfer. In fact, assuming those do occur, they are secondary benefits at best. Mycorrhizae might be essential for nutrient and fuel transport into seed for germination in situ, but that's certainly not the case with a plant.
As to whether they stay active in our typical environments, I'd say "yes", but that the true question is "for how long". These are living critters that have finite life spans, specific needs for fuel for growth and reproduction (fortunately not THAT specific, as long as it's digestible carbon), and likely preferred conditions. The vats in which they were cultured probably come as close to ideal as anything, and once applied, it's less so.
However, the fact that, in many field evaluations (speaking of the Inocucor product, for which there is solid test data), a single treatment at germination or transplanting has been shown to have significant effects months later, suggests that there is an active population still contributing.
That said, going back to your question related to our growing environments, I suspect the longevity isn't so great, which is why periodic retreatments are in order.
As to whether they stay active in our typical environments, I'd say "yes", but that the true question is "for how long". These are living critters that have finite life spans, specific needs for fuel for growth and reproduction (fortunately not THAT specific, as long as it's digestible carbon), and likely preferred conditions. The vats in which they were cultured probably come as close to ideal as anything, and once applied, it's less so.
However, the fact that, in many field evaluations (speaking of the Inocucor product, for which there is solid test data), a single treatment at germination or transplanting has been shown to have significant effects months later, suggests that there is an active population still contributing.
That said, going back to your question related to our growing environments, I suspect the longevity isn't so great, which is why periodic retreatments are in order.
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K
keithrs
Guest
Having experience working with mycorrhizal fungi and beneficial bacteria on a hobby level for several years, there are no commercially available products for orchid specifically.
That said, I have found that terrestrial orchids are the only ones to benefit from commercially available myco. fungi simply with breaking down organic media for the plant to use. This holds especially true if you use organic fertilizers. I have not tested on terrestrials grown in inorganic media.
As for epiphic orchids, I have only found that trichoderma fungi and some beneficial bacteria to be of any use. They help in the way of helping to keep pathogens at bay mostly. I have tried N. fixing bacteria with no real benefit. The use of commercially available myco. Has not helped.
I have noticed the greatest benefits from beneficial bacteria and trichoderma on seedlings. When I deflask seedlings, I mix up a dose of bio war folar with 5ppm N k-lite and seaweed extract. I brew for 4hrs with an air stone. The main purpose of the fertilizer allows the bacteria to propagate faster. I then soak the seedlings for 1min and allow to air dry before potting or mounting. I also soak the media and/or mount for 30 mins. I spray the same mix once a week intel I feel the seedlings are strong enough.
Just as a procation for those who use bark, coco, tree fern and moss as medium. Fungi will not be your freind for long! These mediums will breakdown at an alarming rate. You will most likely get mushrooms and little white strains(roots) growing in your media.:evil:
That said, I have found that terrestrial orchids are the only ones to benefit from commercially available myco. fungi simply with breaking down organic media for the plant to use. This holds especially true if you use organic fertilizers. I have not tested on terrestrials grown in inorganic media.
As for epiphic orchids, I have only found that trichoderma fungi and some beneficial bacteria to be of any use. They help in the way of helping to keep pathogens at bay mostly. I have tried N. fixing bacteria with no real benefit. The use of commercially available myco. Has not helped.
I have noticed the greatest benefits from beneficial bacteria and trichoderma on seedlings. When I deflask seedlings, I mix up a dose of bio war folar with 5ppm N k-lite and seaweed extract. I brew for 4hrs with an air stone. The main purpose of the fertilizer allows the bacteria to propagate faster. I then soak the seedlings for 1min and allow to air dry before potting or mounting. I also soak the media and/or mount for 30 mins. I spray the same mix once a week intel I feel the seedlings are strong enough.
Just as a procation for those who use bark, coco, tree fern and moss as medium. Fungi will not be your freind for long! These mediums will breakdown at an alarming rate. You will most likely get mushrooms and little white strains(roots) growing in your media.:evil:
