Merit of adding Mycorrhizae to potting medium

[Happypaphy7]

Interesting info. I might try this.
but soaking for just 1 minute??

nevermind, stupid me. That is for the initial soaking out of the flask, right? still seem very short, but you said you soak for 30min.

I soak my plants for a long time sometimes, but that's just me. lol

 

[Ray]

Just as a procation for those who use bark, coco, tree fern and moss as medium. Fungi will not be your freind for long! These mediums will breakdown at an alarming rate. You will most likely get mushrooms and little white strains(roots) growing in your media.:evil:

I have been using the Inocucor product regularly for three years, and I have not seen any premature decomposition, nor the growth of of any ectomycorrhyzae.

 

[Rick]

I'm not sure if we are talking about the same topic, Ray and Lance. I think gego is talking about the mechanism of how the plants and fungi communicate. Yes, they can release amino acids or more likely proteins which help nutrient uptake and degradation of organic matters through enzymatic reaction. And there are lots of evidence that plants, including orchids, can absorb amino acids. But that might not be the way how fungi and plants exchange goods at the peloton (the place where they are likely to communicate, here are photos). Similarly, the facts that some forms of N (or whatever mineral nutrients) is in the soil, and that roots can absorb them are just a part of the story. After the N moves from the surrounding region into the root cells, they have to be loaded to xylem, and they need to get distributed. Different forms of N has different efficiency at these other steps. It appears that in general NO3 is easier to transport in long distance (from root to leaves) than NH4.

Was reading a paper on fungal endophytes in Vanda and Bulbophyllum (in India). The most common root fungus was Aspergillus niger. This fungus is coincidentally the same species used for commercial citric acid production. So coupled with the other research I've come across on organic acids, plant metabolism, and fungus-plant associations I suspect that the OA's (especially citric and malic acid) are among the most important chemicals that orchids derive from fungal associates.

 

[gonewild]

Was reading a paper on fungal endophytes in Vanda and Bulbophyllum (in India). The most common root fungus was Aspergillus niger. This fungus is coincidentally the same species used for commercial citric acid production. So coupled with the other research I've come across on organic acids, plant metabolism, and fungus-plant associations I suspect that the OA's (especially citric and malic acid) are among the most important chemicals that orchids derive from fungal associates.

You mentioned in another thread that you use 1ml/4L lemon juice. Do you know how much citric acid that is applying?

 

[keithrs]

I have been using the Inocucor product regularly for three years, and I have not seen any premature decomposition, nor the growth of of any ectomycorrhyzae.

Ray- That's not the experience I have had with about half of the 6 or so products I've used. I've pulled Den. Kingianums from plastic pots that where repotted with in 6 months with pine bark and had mycelium growing all over the bark. The bottom 1/2" was all decomposed bark and worm castings. I have had the same with CHC. (worms love CHC)

How do you like your product? Does it help in any way?

 

[Rick]

You mentioned in another thread that you use 1ml/4L lemon juice. Do you know how much citric acid that is applying?

I'm using the grocery store lemon juice in the plastic fake lemon bottle. It supposed to have about 1gram of citric acid per fluid oz.

So with all the conversions it may be around 8mg/L of citric acid. And probably around .8mg/L of malic acid.

There's a few other folks like Ed M using straight citric acid/malic acid with good result too, but he has more math issues than me trying to figure out what's coming out of his Dosatron.

Typically you can get away with almost as much as you want as long as the pH doesn't go below ~5.5


When I get a chance I post some update pics from that thread I started around July of last year.
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38369&highlight=lemon&page=6
The results are pretty nice.

 

[gonewild]

I'm using the grocery store lemon juice in the plastic fake lemon bottle. It supposed to have about 1gram of citric acid per fluid oz.

So with all the conversions it may be around 8mg/L of citric acid. And probably around .8mg/L of malic acid.

There's a few other folks like Ed M using straight citric acid/malic acid with good result too, but he has more math issues than me trying to figure out what's coming out of his Dosatron.

Typically you can get away with almost as much as you want as long as the pH doesn't go below ~5.5


When I get a chance I post some update pics from that thread I started around July of last year.

Thanks. I have powdered citric acid I want to try but no idea where to start. I need to keep my pH up so don't want to use more than necessary.

 

[Rick]

Thanks. I have powdered citric acid I want to try but no idea where to start. I need to keep my pH up so don't want to use more than necessary.

Lance.

Its looking like a combination of citric w/malic is better than just straight citric acid. Ratio of about 10:1 seems fine.

 

[gonewild]

Lance.

Its looking like a combination of citric w/malic is better than just straight citric acid. Ratio of about 10:1 seems fine.

And where the H am I supposed to find malic acid?
What is it used for? (other than fertilizer)

I may have to squeeze lemons, problem is there are no lemons here....only Limes!

 

[Rick]

And where the H am I supposed to find malic acid?
What is it used for? (other than fertilizer)

I may have to squeeze lemons, problem is there are no lemons here....only Limes!

Limes are bad either but fresh squeeze will be a pain!!

From Ed M it didn't sound like malic was hard to find.

This has been working on ALL my orchids including a handful of hybrid phalaes.

 

[Kawarthapine]

Guys. Malic acid is usually consumed by certain yeasts during wine fermentation, but I have noticed it did precipitate out of some of my white wines.

Perhaps commercial wineries or wine making stores would have some available.

Certainly chemistry/chemical supply stores will have it available.

 

[gonewild]

Guys. Malic acid is usually consumed by certain yeasts during wine fermentation, but I have noticed it did precipitate out of some of my white wines.

Perhaps commercial wineries or wine making stores would have some available.

Certainly chemistry/chemical supply stores will have it available.

Thanks for the clue about malic acid. Unfortunately there are no such supply sources here where I am.

 

[Ray]

Ray- That's not the experience I have had with about half of the 6 or so products I've used. I've pulled Den. Kingianums from plastic pots that where repotted with in 6 months with pine bark and had mycelium growing all over the bark. The bottom 1/2" was all decomposed bark and worm castings. I have had the same with CHC. (worms love CHC)



How do you like your product? Does it help in any way?

Keith, the Inocucor product is intended to prevent rots and stimulate plant growth, and I can vouch that it does.

I've been alternating it with KelpMax (each applied monthly), and aside from a complete lack of rots of any sort, I am seeing spectacular growth and. Blooming, but what is most impressive is how rapidly the plants multiply in number of growths. One-, to six or eight in a year is pretty common.

 

[gonewild]

Blooming, but what is most impressive is how rapidly the plants multiply in number of growths. One-, to six or eight in a year is pretty common.

That would be a result of the increased auxins. You may run into some ill effects at some point. The constant elevated auxin levels causing normally dormant buds to grow into stems may at some point over tax the plant to the point it just wears out.
Or maybe not.

 

[Ray]

That's why I only add the KelpMax monthly.

Once you "spike" the process, it's takes about 7-10 days for the stimulation to reach a peak and drop back to normal levels again. The subsequent cytokinins spike follows a similar curve, but lags by about half the period, making the entire process anywhere from two-, to three weeks.

Monthly applications avoid overdoing it, and is much easier to remember.

 

[keithrs]

I can't say that any of the products I have used directly promoted any growth. All have prevented rot and allowed a strong root system grow. Some better than others. Allowing strong roots is what I mainly contribute to heathy plants for me.

 

[Ozpaph]

I can't say that any of the products I have used directly promoted any growth. All have prevented rot and allowed a strong root system grow. Some better than others. Allowing strong roots is what I mainly contribute to heathy plants for me.

If they prevent rot they would be worth their weight in gold to me...................just lost my second sanderianum. Growing great one day - brown mess a week later, despite every chemical in the world - even DB.
Prevention has got to be better.

 

[myxodex]

Limes are bad either but fresh squeeze will be a pain!!

From Ed M it didn't sound like malic was hard to find.

This has been working on ALL my orchids including a handful of hybrid phalaes.

According to the following paper limes have more malic acid and a little less citric acid than lemons, but citric acid is the most abundant in both.

lemons : 1.5 g/L malic, 73.9 g/L citric
limes : 5.2 g/L malic, 61.5 g/L citric

https://www.researchgate.net/public...Citrus_Juices_under_Reversed_Phase_Conditions

PS I look forward to update on organic acids

 

[naoki]

Was reading a paper on fungal endophytes in Vanda and Bulbophyllum (in India). The most common root fungus was Aspergillus niger. This fungus is coincidentally the same species used for commercial citric acid production. So coupled with the other research I've come across on organic acids, plant metabolism, and fungus-plant associations I suspect that the OA's (especially citric and malic acid) are among the most important chemicals that orchids derive from fungal associates.

I guess you are talking about this paper:
Sudheep, N. M. and K. R. Sridhar 2012. Non-mycorrhizal fungal endophytes in two orchids of Kaiga forest (Western Ghats), India. Journal of Forestry Research 23(3): 453−460
In case of A. niger, it seems that it uses sugar (glucose sucrose) and produce citric acid.

There is no doubt that there are lots of endophytes associated with orchids in addition to mycorrhizal fungi, but I don't think that people has convincingly demonstrated the benefit of endophytes on orchids. They may be just there without positive or negative effects. Or they may have minor negative effects. Here is an easy review, which I got this info from:
Bayman, P. and J. T. Otero 2006. Microbial endophytes of orchid roots. In B. Schultz, C. Boyle, T. Sieber (ends) Soil Biology Volume 9: Microbial Root Endophytes, Springer-Verlang, Berlin (I think the pdf is accessible to anyone). It mentions that when they killed all fungi (endophytes and mycorrhizal fungi), the plant suffered (e.g. higher death rate), but a targeted fungicide, which doesn't kill orchid mycorrhizal fungi, didn't have much effect (p.172). The authors of reviewers think that more data is need about the nature of relationship between endophytes and orchids before any conclusion can be drawn.

More specifically with regard to A. niger, it is an interesting point, but where is A. niger getting C from to make the citric acid? They can use sugar (glucose, sucrose etc) to produce citric acid, but plants can probably more efficiently produce citric acid (almost all organisms can synthesize citric acid by them selves) than passing sucrose to the the fungi, and getting citric acid back. If they are obtaining C source from the soil (or some other place), then it is a possibility to "help" plant. But plants are good at getting C without citric acid, right? Under cultivation, they can utilize additional organic acids if there are no other limiting factors. But in nature, plants generally offer C (mycorrhizae, N-fixing rhizobia, nectar for pollinator) in exchange of other limiting factors.

Just to make sure, I'm not disagreeing with usefulness of organic acid as supplements for plant cultivation. I looked into this a little bit, and I agree that there are fair amount of evidences indicating the benefit.

 

[naoki]

That would be a result of the increased auxins. You may run into some ill effects at some point. The constant elevated auxin levels causing normally dormant buds to grow into stems may at some point over tax the plant to the point it just wears out.
Or maybe not.

I think you meant cytokinins, not auxins.