Looking for secret

[dodidoki]

I read few article about mycorrhizae fungi, they are mainly Tulanella spec., they live in dead plant parts and during biodegradation they made NO2, No3, So2 ,PO4 and HCO3 ions, mainly acidic.(ph 5,5-6)
Does anyone know specific mycorrhizea biochemicals for orchid? Other biochemicals are used for fruits and other flowers with very good result.
I think many orchids die in GH because lost their Tulanellas. ( selenipediums, Solomon slippers)

 

[gonewild]

A lot of orchid species are believed to have their own personal mycorrhizae.
No one has actually identified a positive proven general substitute.

Logic would be to collect mycorrhizae from the wild orchids plants in situ but of course it would never be allowed to legally transport the microbes.

 

[keithrs]

There was a company in EU some where that was making myco for orchids. Not sure of the spp tho.

I'm looking to see if I can find it again...

.............

I still can't find the company.

But the quick research I did on the strain Tulanellas is part of the Rhizoctonia family which causes all kinds of problems. Not sure I would want that strain with my plants.

 

[Ozpaph]

This is an interesting topic. I have a few questions if someone can educate me I'd be appreciative.
If mycorrhizae are important to plant survival how do the plants grow in a cultivated environment when deflasked? I have my deflasklings away from adult plants and in new mix. How do they grow and survive? When do the roots become colonised? In a mixed orchid collection are there different fungi for different genera?
Thanks

 

[SlipperKing]

You provide through water and fertilzer what the fungus provide through biodegradation.

 

[keithrs]

This is an interesting topic. I have a few questions if someone can educate me I'd be appreciative.
If mycorrhizae are important to plant survival how do the plants grow in a cultivated environment when deflasked? I have my deflasklings away from adult plants and in new mix. How do they grow and survive? When do the roots become colonised? In a mixed orchid collection are there different fungi for different genera?
Thanks

The orchid that you and I own are only dependent on fungi for seed propagation in the wild. They dont need them to survive just like a tomato doesnt fungi to survive. With at said There are others like the coral root orchids that depend on fungi to draw energy from near by trees. The coral root orchid has no leaves to produce energy.

A very elementary way fungi works is that it sends out very small root like threads(mycellium) that gather nutrients and bring it back for the plant. In exchange the plants gives of sugar that it produces.

Very few plants need fungi to survive but a huge benefit if you can supply it.

 

[Stone]

This is an interesting topic. I have a few questions if someone can educate me I'd be appreciative.
If mycorrhizae are important to plant survival how do the plants grow in a cultivated environment when deflasked? I have my deflasklings away from adult plants and in new mix. How do they grow and survive? When do the roots become colonised? In a mixed orchid collection are there different fungi for different genera?
Thanks

You can pretty much bet that a lot of the orchids in your/our greenhouse are ''infected'' with myco as we speak. (many studies have found this) And a lot probably aren't. It doesn't seem to make much difference when they are being artificially fed. Also, to ensure that an orchid is inocculated and continues the relationship with the fungus, you almost have to grow them in lab conditions because its apparently so easy to tip the balance and kill the myco. I've also read that some orchids have only temporary associations and need to renew every year. And some can and do actually attack and kill their
host when they're feeling in the mood!
Unless you're trying to grow some of the crazy terrestrials, nearly all the cultvated orchids can be grown to perfection without worrying about mycos so should we bother? Maybe one day when/if the science is more solid it will help?
I do know that they are having very good results with some woody plants innoculated with several species of mycos and transplanted into the open ground. Survival rates for these were much higher than the controls! I guess if you are re-introducing orchids back into the habitat, mycos would be vital.

 

[keithrs]

I will say that I have use myco's on my orchids and see no difference in growth.

 

[Ozpaph]

Thank-you. So Dodidokis quest for myoc seems pointless, then?

 

[keithrs]

Thank-you. So Dodidokis quest for myoc seems pointless, then?

No not really... I do believe that cyp., Selenipedium and species like goodyera could benefit.

 

[gonewild]

Thank-you. So Dodidokis quest for myoc seems pointless, then?

No it is never pointless to try to discover new methods or learn how to improve.
But the quest for mycorrhizae is not new and likely won't show any visible results.

 

[Rick]

This is an interesting topic. I have a few questions if someone can educate me I'd be appreciative.
If mycorrhizae are important to plant survival how do the plants grow in a cultivated environment when deflasked? I have my deflasklings away from adult plants and in new mix. How do they grow and survive? When do the roots become colonised? In a mixed orchid collection are there different fungi for different genera?
Thanks

In the wild, the point of "infection" is at the germination stage of the orchid embryo. This is also the time the orchid has no roots or chlorophyll to obtain and make it's own nutrients. It is generally believed that by the time the seedlings make it out of flask with roots and chlorophyll in leaves that the fungi are not necessary.

The process of flasking (starting orchid embryos in a nutrient rich media) was a landmark development that generally bypassed the need to for symbiotic fungi. However, I have seen some articles of certain species germinating and growing better when fungus are added to a very weak media. (High strength media is generally detrimental for symbiotic fungi)

 

[Rick]

I read few article about mycorrhizae fungi, they are mainly Tulanella spec., they live in dead plant parts and during biodegradation they made NO2, No3, So2 ,PO4 and HCO3 ions, mainly acidic.(ph 5,5-6)

A lot of these same compounds are produced by bluegreen algae which are in common association with mosses. And both terrestrial and epiphytic orchid species are frequently found in association with mosses (as well as fungi).

Needless to say, the orchids have evolved to live in generally nutrient poor systems where they develop relationships with simpler organisms that are more proficient at developing fairly inert materials into usable nutrient building blocks.


We have often speculated that these associations supply unknown trace amounts of highly specialized (almost magical) nutrients that are requirements for the thriving orchid. But over the years I'm seeing less and less evidence of this.

 

[Rick]

Sept 2012 edition of Orchids has an article on germinating an Epi species using gel beads of Epi seeds and Ceratobasidium fungi.

The food source is peat moss. The process doesn't require sterile conditions as in standard orchid flasking systems.

January 2013 issue of Orchids has an article on evolution of the symbiotic relationship of orchids with fungi.

 

[dodidoki]

I opened this thread and discussion because of some problematic species, selenipediums, paph. wentworthianum, bougainvilleanum.
All of reports said that these plants died within a short time after digging out of their natural habitat. Other interesting point that arteficial reproduction of these species is impossible with our current knowledge.
I think, that these plants have chlorophyll for photosyntesis, indeed, however they are not independent from fungi, they got "something" from fungi what is essential to survive ( hormones maybe???)
Only one sel. aequinoctiale reported to bloom in GH, died soon after blooming. One palmifolium reported has bloomed in GH- only this one, what was digged out with a large soil ball. This one died after blooming, too.
I think bad fate of these plants begins with soaking their roots and desinfection against diseases with fungicides.
My first seleni arrived with bare roots, died within few weeks.
Second one has a little soil ball around roots, this one produced a nem growth, 80 cm tall, survived more than one year but nowadays is about to die. I think my efforts against rot killed its fungi.
If I will try again I think I will avoid seleni from any chemicals and will ask seller sending plant with bigger original soil ball.

 

[Rick]

I opened this thread and discussion because of some problematic species, selenipediums, paph. wentworthianum, bougainvilleanum.
All of reports said that these plants died within a short time after digging out of their natural habitat. Other interesting point that arteficial reproduction of these species is impossible with our current knowledge.

I also have seen very little to no good results for selenipedium, but the others have been propagated artificially before, but wentworthianum and bougainvilleanum are very rare in culture today.

I have some seedlings from Ten Shin that are labeled P papuanum, but the foliage looks more like wentworthianum (or bougainvilleanum). They are doing very well for me. But I guess unless I get to see pics of the parents or these plants bloom, they could be hybrids.

It was also speculated that most Cypripedium could not survive without fungi or fungi facilitated flasking. But now many Cyps are propagated without such influence.

 

[dodidoki]

Can you post me pics?

I have papuanum ( syn zieckianum), too. I had two ones before, all of them flowered and died. This third one is going very well, but I grow this one in sphagnum with living fern covered plus by a larger transparent pot. So humidity near plant is always around 90-95%. Plant seems to be happy this way.

Maybe you know, too, that almost all of wentworthianum sold by nurseries turned to be fake ones, mostly mastersianum or dayanum. I have one "wentworthianum", too, never bloomed but happy with 3 bs growths, I expect flower this year. I have no doubt that mine is fake, too. I look for closer pics from a real one for comparison but can't find.
If you interested, I can post pic about my zieck.

 

[Rick]

Can you post me pics?

I have papuanum ( syn zieckianum), too. I had two ones before, all of them flowered and died. This third one is going very well, but I grow this one in sphagnum with living fern covered plus by a larger transparent pot. So humidity near plant is always around 90-95%. Plant seems to be happy this way.

Maybe you know, too, that almost all of wentworthianum sold by nurseries turned to be fake ones, mostly mastersianum or dayanum. I have one "wentworthianum", too, never bloomed but happy with 3 bs growths, I expect flower this year. I have no doubt that mine is fake, too. I look for closer pics from a real one for comparison but can't find.
If you interested, I can post pic about my zieck.

http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26342

Here's some pics of Paphman's papuanum seedlings in compot. Mine are considerably bigger, but look very similar for the lack of patterning on the leaves. There is a good chance that mine are from the same source/parents. The catalog number for mine from Ten Shin was HS 1451, but if you go to the Ten Shin site, the Paphs are blocked on their e catalog and they purportedly get their paphs from Hung Sheng (the HS from the Ten Shin list?). Paphman was able to get pics of the parents for his and the pictures are definitely papuanum or wentworthianum flowers (no foliage in the pics to see).

 

[dodidoki]

Yes, Wayne asked me for a pic of my zieck few weeks ago for comparison of his compot. I think it might be real zieck.

 

[Rick]

Maybe you know, too, that almost all of wentworthianum sold by nurseries turned to be fake ones, mostly mastersianum or dayanum.

I can believe mastersianum since that species the leaves are very similar to wentworthianum. Only weakly patterned thick and glossy. But dayanum has strongly patterned leaves that are not very glossy, more like hookerae or lawrencianum.

Mastersianum is also a fairly rare and difficult species. Since going low K and baskets they are doing very well for me. Under standard potted conditions they seemed slow, but after I checked pot TDS and found it high, I flush the pots regularly with very low TDS water, and now they grow very well.

I'm finding that the bloom and die syndrome is frequently tied to high potassium in the plant and/or the pot.

Going to low K fert and watering by TDS measurements I am getting much more new growth before and after blooming, and not having plants wither and die.