K-Lite Update?

[Rick]

Or maybe you have the resources but are just to lazy to use them? Or Mother Nature gave that job to some other species? Just because the plants don't use the resource does not mean it is not available.
Your K-Lite formula works but I don't think the good effect you are seeing will be restricted to plants that naturally come from a low K environment. I think you are correct and you are showing that K can become "toxic" in plants, probably most plants.

Ahh.. But didn't we just say that people have gone out in the jungles (like yourself) with various probes and measuring methods and devices, and determined that the resources aren't available?

It doesn't look like anyone in the jungle gets a free ride (except maybe the beauty queens!!).

All fun debate. Chasing the Klite concept gave me an idea about the "evolution" of domestic corn (a plant that really seems to need a ton of K).

It seems that 'edible' corn showed up about the same time as humanity. Indian lore (from the corn cultures) all have similar stories about corn being a gift from the gods to the starving people, but long after the acknowledgment that people arrived to a land already populated by the other plant and animal beings.

The closest relatives of corn (Teostimine, if I spelled that correctly, but another of the genus Zia) grows fine at jungle margins in the regions were corn is thought to originate, but is really inedible for humans.

But one of the first gifts from the Gods was fire, and with burning of wood you get ashes, and with the rain going through the ashes you get POTASH (i.e. concentrated potassium solution).

So with groups of humans leaving burned out piles of ashes from their staying warm and meat cooking fires, what if that was next to a clump of that "dammed worthless Teostomine weed"......+ Darwinian evolution+mutation = CORN!!! GIFT FROM THE FIRE GODS!

I thought that was a fun story to make up.

 

[Rick]

More fun.

Evolution = Gods playing stick ball
Mutations = GOALS!

Darwin = particularly astute game commentator (for a white guyoke

 

[Ray]

We accept that as the obvious reason plants have certain defenses but is the design and purpose of the defenses to protect the plant from all insects for the sake of plant survival alone or also to protect a food source for select insect species?

Is that a "chicken or egg" question, or one that questions the entire reason for the existence of all living things?

Just because the plants don't use the resource does not mean it is not available.

True to some degree, but plants tend to be quite opportunistic, so generally use whatever IS available - some nutrient uptake is active, others passive, so they may get it whether they need to or not.

Those plants that have evolved to use little or no "X" are very unlikely to grow in an area where "X" is plentiful, and if we relocate a plant into an "X-plentiful" environment, it will likely suffer - maybe not a lot, but its "evolutionary optimization" no longer applies.

That is what we do when we "domesticate" them.

 

[emydura]

Ok, so assuming your plants are recieving equal quanaties of both ferts??, then your N to K ratio would be (very aprox) around 1:0.3. I think that's a pretty good ratio and in fact very nearly the same as I'm using. On the other hand The K-lite formula refered to in this thread etc. has a ratio more like 1:00.1 or less. (if my head is screwed on properly this morning). A big difference!
I think your combination of nutrients is pretty good (with perhaps too much P?) So all we are disagreeing on is the rate? But without knowing the ec of your feed solutions or your p/mix i'ts hard to comment.

Mike

It is hard to tell how much fertliser is coming from the Magamp without doing tests as it is just a slow release fertiliser everytime I water. But I would expect a greater proportion is coming from the CMB as I use that at a pretty high concentration. As Rick says the K to Ca/Mg ratio is probably more important and the % of Mg and Ca I'm using is considerably higher than that used by the K lite formula currently being trialled overseas. So overall, maybe we end up with a similar ratio.

And as I said before a lot of the Ca and Mg in my plants goes directly in through the leaves, which I assume is independent of K levels. The end game is an increased uptake of Ca and Mg by your plants rather than lower K levels itself. Lower K just helps facilitate the absorption of Ca and Mg.

 

[Rick]

And as I said before a lot of the Ca and Mg in my plants goes directly in through the leaves, which I assume is independent of K levels. The end game is an increased uptake of Ca and Mg by your plants rather than lower K levels itself. Lower K just helps facilitate the absorption of Ca and Mg.

David

From what I've picked up from the litterature so far is that Ca doesn't transport easily through the plant to start with, and seems to be stuck going through roots as the primary route. Mg (and K) seem to be highly transportable within and throughout the plant.

For generall comparison of Ca/K ratios the old MSU was about 0.5:1 (asuming you were using RO and not any forms of tap water for makeup). K lite on the other hand is about 14:1 in RO water. A very big difference. as far as fertilizer goes.

But for irrigation the rest of the week with people using well or tap water this is still a very low Ca: K ratio, which could be on the order of 100-200+:1

But overally the point is to make the plant work for that K.

 

[emydura]

David

From what I've picked up from the litterature so far is that Ca doesn't transport easily through the plant to start with, and seems to be stuck going through roots as the primary route. Mg (and K) seem to be highly transportable within and throughout the plant.

For generall comparison of Ca/K ratios the old MSU was about 0.5:1 (asuming you were using RO and not any forms of tap water for makeup). K lite on the other hand is about 14:1 in RO water. A very big difference. as far as fertilizer goes.

But for irrigation the rest of the week with people using well or tap water this is still a very low Ca: K ratio, which could be on the order of 100-200+:1

But overally the point is to make the plant work for that K.

Thanks Rick

The proportion of Ca to K in the CMB is 38:1. So you don't think the plants would be able to take up much Ca through the leaves? You would think that as CMB Foliar is a foliar fertiliser and that Ca makes up the greatest proportion of CMB (17%) that plants must be able to absorb it through the leaves. I do apply CMB to the potting mix every fourth watering so the roots would be able to access some. But the majority of CMB is applied to the leaves.

My K is certainly much lower than previously. Most fertilisers have high K proportions and it is very hard to find anything with low K. There is one fertiliser that is really pushed hard here by the orchid nurseries - Peter's Excel Hi K (13+2.2+16.6 / 5.0 Ca). I think it is highly recommended because of the Ca concentration but then the K is over the top.

It is a little hard for me to quantify exactly how much K, Ca and Mg my plants are getting. But I can easily tell how my plants are going and so far things look great.

 

[Stone]

Apparently not. You post as many complaints and questions about perceived shortcomings in your plants as the rest of us. Apparently NOT ok.

Most of the questions I'm asking are related to general culture of paphs which I've only been seriously collecting for a couple of years. species specific stuff, others experiences etc. Although as the months go by I've noticed that most of these issues are pretty much comparable to general orchid culture which I've been doing for years. But there's always something to complain about
I haven't had the problems you speak of below since I first started growing orchids way back. Maybe some of these problems you experienced were related to the learning curve that all growers go through? You can't say that you lost a compot from too high K? my feeling is it was probably something more fudimental. We all kill plants when we first start but we quickly learn from mistakes.( the best lessons)

What defines "OK"? 90% loss of seedlings?

Hasn't happened for ages.

Plants that "bloom themselves to death" after 3 years?

Never hapend

Plants that take 10 years to get to blooming size?

Happens sometimes, depends what your growing.

Plants that loose their roots if you don't repot twice a year?

Never happend

Plants that need constant doses of pesticides to keep pest under control?

Never happend

Plants that can't get watered on them after 10AM so they don't get rot?

I presume you mean 10 PM. You must choose a hot dry evening to do this and have lots of air moving then you can do it. I do it EVERY day during summer on the outside orchids! ( good air!)
So yes I think I'm doing OK.......... But learning all the time.
Of the hundred or so seedlings that have come in in the past 2 years, I've only lost 1 godefroyae because I watered it and kept it too humid at the wrong time.

Mike. You keep bringing up that you have to get the basics (light temp humidity) down first. I agree, but that is also us growers adapting to the plants needs as much as the plants adapting to the growers offered parameters.

However, those three items are a pretty small repertoire of variables to worry about. So what do you do after exhausting the "Intermediate temps, Medium Light, High humidity" bag of tricks on the 6th compot of a Paph species that you've just wasted?[/

Its all in the details. The little things the books never tell you and you have to find out by yourself. Little things like moving plants about to find just the right spot for that season or month or day!! A little more light here, a bit more fan there, mist this more than that, Blah Blah.

 

[Stone]

We accept that as the obvious reason plants have certain defenses but is the design and purpose of the defenses to protect the plant from all insects for the sake of plant survival alone or also to protect a food source for select insect species?

Surley your not seriousoke: What else are you growing in Peru??




.

Because there are some small creatures out there that need to feed on the tiny low sugar/starch seeds???

Lance?? Are you hinting at design?? What's going on??

 

[Rick]

You can't say that you lost a compot from too high K? my feeling is it was probably something more fudimental. We all kill plants when we first start but we quickly learn from mistakes.( the best lessons)

Yes I can.

For instance basic lowii sp. I've produced multiple compots of a selfing of a particular adult over the last 8 years. During this period I haven't significantly changed the fundamental light/temp/humidity profile of the growing area. I had my humidity epiphany over 8 years ago (yes learning from mistakes)

So I have none of those first seedlings left from pre k lite growing, and just about all of the seedlings from post K lite growing are still alive and bigger than best of the old batch ever did.

This applies to several batches of seedlings over the years of many other species and genera. It's easy to pick apart and multiple excuse each on a case by case basis, especially when you stretch out these experiences over a 10 year period. That's exactly what I would be doing in the middle of each of these separate crisis, tweaking fans and water, and light and......while frittering all these little seedlings away. But now after accumulating trials and tribulations for 10 years (and exhausting every last fan and humidity tweak I or we can come up with) it would be insanity on my part to forget all the past and keep chasing after the same old fans/lights/water at night...excuses and focus on the other 20% of growing. Low and behold... this overall, greenhouse wide shift in success seems like I figured something out and learned from my mistakes.

 

[Stone]

Here is the insigne I mentioned. As you can see it doen't seem to mind a bit of extra K! And, seeing its never really been repotted, there is probably quite a build up of K (along with Ca and Mg) ions in the old mix which has no doubt broken down to pure humus over the years along with the fact that he used unamended chc under it the last time he moved it on. Not something I would do but there you are...
More pics to the right:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jvinoz/7379714008/

 

[SlipperFan]

Amazing plant!

 

[Rick]

Here is the insigne I mentioned. As you can see it doen't seem to mind a bit of extra K! And, seeing its never really been repotted, there is probably quite a build up of K (along with Ca and Mg) ions in the old mix which has no doubt broken down to pure humus over the years along with the fact that he used unamended chc under it the last time he moved it on. Not something I would do but there you are...
More pics to the right:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jvinoz/7379714008/

That's an awesome plant.

But as you mentioned he hardly feeds in the first place and the root density in that pot has got to be amazing. At this point that huge mass of plant competing for a handful of any fertilizer would probably have quite low concentrations of K in the tissues, roots, and whats left of the potting mix.

I have several plants that are essentially busting out of pots and also rarely repotted over the ten years I've owned them. The pearcei I posted last week is one of them. Interestingly, until going to K lite I've never been able to get a one or two growth division of this plant to survive for any significant length of time when potted up by itself. Now the divisions are doing great after a full year:wink:

Obviously Mike you won't be convinced until after 40 years of full double blind controlled studies, with accompanying tissues sample analysis. But I guess after 6 months (1+ years for a few of us) with hundreds of plants from multiple growers using K lite, that at least we know that orchids do fine without feeding a ton of K. Most of us have reduced our overall K footprint by 90% with no loss of growth or blooming potential. So that's good for the environment.:wink:

 

[Stone]

Obviously Mike you won't be convinced until after 40 years of full double blind controlled studies, with accompanying tissues sample analysis.

:rollhappy:
Acually I am convinced that K levels in most feeds are way too high (depending on p/mixes) for most orchid species and I think generally reducing K is a good thing:clap:
The leaf litter data for tropical forests (that I've seen) seem to show Ca to K ratios of very roughly 50/50 but yes this varies widely!! And from what I've seen, varies from wet to dry seasons as well.
By the way have you considered the antagonistic relationship of NH4 to K?
But, from what I've seen here (so far) I'm not so conviced K needs to be reduced as much as the K-lite formula.

 

[gonewild]

Surley your not seriousoke: What else are you growing in Peru??

:rollhappy: I grow lot's of things! I'm serious enough to consider anything is possible and so I make comments to give people a reason to "think" rather than assume.

Lance?? Are you hinting at design??

design, purpose, reason or reality... all are just hints no matter what we think.

What's going on??

Conversing to drag out hints to what makes plants grow and to make you wonder what is going on. oke:

 

[gonewild]

But, from what I've seen here (so far) I'm not so conviced K needs to be reduced as much as the K-lite formula.

Are you suggesting that the plants would grow better with more K than the K-Lite?

 

[gonewild]

Here is the insigne I mentioned. As you can see it doen't seem to mind a bit of extra K! And, seeing its never really been repotted, there is probably quite a build up of K (along with Ca and Mg) ions in the old mix which has no doubt broken down to pure humus over the years along with the fact that he used unamended chc under it the last time he moved it on. Not something I would do but there you are...
More pics to the right:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jvinoz/7379714008/

A beautiful plant.....and just imagine out much better it would be if he used K-Lite!

 

[Rick]

Are you suggesting that the plants would grow better with more K than the K-Lite?

Quote Alert! that's Mikes quote not mine Lance.

 

[Rick]

By the way have you considered the antagonistic relationship of NH4 to K?

No because most of us are working in low alkalinity solutions with very little NH4.

The problematic MSU/RO and Klite/RO are almost all NO3 for nitrogen rather than NH4

 

[Stone]

:rollhappy: I grow lot's of things! I'm serious enough to consider anything is possible and so I make comments to give people a reason to "think" rather than assume.

When I read your original post about the bugs, I imagined a tree sitting in the forest at dusk stretching out its branches and saying (in a transalvanian accent) ''Come my little children of the night.....come and feast on my body so that you may go forth and prosper!''

 

[Stone]

A beautiful plant.....and just imagine out much better it would be if he used K-Lite!

:rollhappy:Ha I'm trying but having trouble!