Judging Legal and Illegal Plants

[NYEric]

Did Vietnam ever legally release hangianum or vietnamense or..!?

 

[tomkalina]

.....or delenatii?

 

[NYEric]

The whole Yunnan province thing is annoying because plants were transported there from other countries (of course with no permits) and naturalized. Then CITES says they're legal. However, if I transport a plant without permits I'm breaking the laws!

 

[Trithor]

Eric, I am unsure if you wish the plants were legal, or if you are glad they are not. I get a feeling of where everyone else stands on the issue from their posts, but you seem to be arguing from both sides?

 

[Eric Muehlbauer]

As I posted in the hangianum thread, there may be a false premise behind the plants "from Yunnan", but the consequences will be great for all of us. All you need is one clearly legal source of a paph, and the door is open. A year or 2 from now, all the species of paph currently legal from HG will be sold openly, regardless of source. And we know that good quality seed grown plants of these have been available clandestinely for some time.

 

[Pete]

FYI that is incorrect.
first legal plants of hangianum, tranlienianum, were summer of 2011 actually! 2 years ago. I imported numerous plants all with proper documentation from Dr. Pernar at that time. Many plants are NBS-BS now.

 

[SlipperKing]

You need to sell us some now Pete!

 

[NYEric]

Eric, I am unsure if you wish the plants were legal, or if you are glad they are not. I get a feeling of where everyone else stands on the issue from their posts, but you seem to be arguing from both sides?

I wish they were all legal. I think the basis upon which those from one source being legal is preposterous and probably illegal on a monopoly basis.

FYI that is incorrect.
first legal plants of hangianum, tranlienianum, were summer of 2011 actually! 2 years ago. I imported numerous plants all with proper documentation from Dr. Pernar at that time. Many plants are NBS-BS now.

What are you saying is incorrect? I know many people here who have had hang, tran, etc for years here and in a couple of years hybrids pf these will be shown and judged and no one will be able (or probably required) to show any receipts for the plant.

 

[Pete]

hey eric, i was just saying that the dates originally stated by dot

Paphiopedilum hangianum is simple — NO hybrids are legal and the only species plants that are legal were brought
into this country in July of last year. They were mature plants and could be flowering soon.

were incorrect, as I imported my hangi's actually a full year earlier than stated. I hope that that is not truly what the AOS thinks is the case.

 

[NYEric]

I think the AOS is following the BS that only hang plants imported from Perner are legal; while records show that for years MANY unidentified species legally imported from many sources with no issue. I don't believe in a few years anyone will be held responsible to have paperwork to have a plant judged or awarded.

 

[gonewild]

I think the AOS is following the BS that only hang plants imported from Perner are legal; while records show that for years MANY unidentified species legally imported from many sources with no issue. I don't believe in a few years anyone will be held responsible to have paperwork to have a plant judged or awarded.

The problem is that CITES listed plants are not legal to import either unidentified or mis-identified.
Making a "mistake" importing CITES species is a crime in the USA.

How can a Paph species be imported as an unidentified species legally?
How can a USFW administrator make a decision that would legalize an illegally imported plant?

If you take a "suspect" species into public view be prepared to prove your innocence. If the AOS receives and illegal species into their possession (judging room) they could be considered as a participant in illegal species trafficing. If they award the plant they could be involved in a conspiracy to increase it's commercial value......

All depends on how much faith you have that the Government Agents always use common sense and compassion.

Remember now under the Lacey Act if you have any doubt about the legality of a plant's origin it is a crime to transport it across a State border.
It is not a crime to own the plant. But it is to transport it or use it for monetary gain, that includes gifting and trading.

 

[NYEric]

The CITES documentation of import into the USA as noted was shown here. I believe the polices of the AOS show a pandering to the government instead of a real concern and movement to encourage our government to make a realistic effort to curb destruction of orchid habitats and to protect the financial interests of vendors here.

BTW, how does showing a plant make it any possesion of the AOS? What is the monetary gain in a "gift"?

 

[gonewild]

BTW, how does showing a plant make it any possesion of the AOS?

When you leave the plant at the show it is in the possession and custody of the "Show". If the show charges an entrance fee it is for people to see plants and thus the show used your plant for commercial use. If you take a plant to a judging Center and it goes into a room away from you the Judges are in possession.

What is the monetary gain in a "gift"?

If you gift the plant you have received the value of not having to buy another gift. so the gov sees that as a financial advantage to you.

If you trade the plant for another plant it has been used as a value exchange. Which means you did not expend money which is a value gain to you.

Any form of value gain or exchange is considered as commercial use in the eyes of the law.

It might even be considered as an illegal act to use the pollen of an illegal plant to make seedlings which you intend to sell for money.

The Lacey Act was carefully crafted to give the Prosecutors many advantages. (we need a really pissed off smiley)

 

[NYEric]

I'm not sweating it!

 

[Trithor]

Wow, you Americans live a tough life!

 

[Chicago Chad]

YES, it is frustrating. I either have the choices of paying an added expense for plants with paperwork, paying more for BS plants that are undocumented and unawardable or waiting it out while other growers get an edge on creating new hybrids. I see a loss in every account.

Most recently I purchased an anitum hybrid that was mislabeled, which is a common result along with the increased prices for plants CITIES determines are Appendix 1. The bottom line is, if I want the plant and believe I can grow it, I will buy it regardless; regardless of the ability to have it awarded ect. There is always the personal satisfaction of blooming the plants, the rest is secondary, but still important.

NYEric may be correct and that all of my efforts are in vain, because it will be unbelievably difficult to trace documented parent plants when new hybrids hit the US market. Is it realistic to think that the AOS will ask a presenter to provide third party documentation of a parent plant that they themselves did not cross. If the AOS does ask this and holds back awards, it will get listed with the other ridiculous rules.

Another example is tranlinianum. Many, if not all vendors say that their plants are 'legal', which may be so, but not awardable unless traced to Hengduan. The AOS is currently holding an award for this reason.

And another with Chi Hua Dancer and Piping Rock.

Will it ever 'just make sense?' Probably not. Until then, hopefully my plants remain labelled correctly.

 

[slippertalker]

The CITES documentation of import into the USA as noted was shown here. I believe the polices of the AOS show a pandering to the government instead of a real concern and movement to encourage our government to make a realistic effort to curb destruction of orchid habitats and to protect the financial interests of vendors here.

BTW, how does showing a plant make it any possesion of the AOS? What is the monetary gain in a "gift"?

It isn't pandering of the AOS, but rather a need to protect the organization against liabilities created by these "illegal" plants. CITES was invented to protect animals and plants that are difficult to regenerate very quickly. Putting slipper orchids on the CITES I listing is more about politics than about real concern for the environment. The AOS plays a very small role in dealing with any of it, European groups especially the RHS is much closer to the issue. I don't buy the possession issue either, but the point is that the AOS is taking temporary possession of the plants while judging. If they don't own the plant, it doesn't make sense.

 

[mormodes]

[snip]BTW, how does showing a plant make it any possesion of the AOS? [snip]

It doesn't. The AOS doesn't take possession of a plant brought in for an award. It accepts no responsibility for the plant at all. See section 5.4 of the handbook. As to exhibiting in a show you'd have to look at the individual society's show schedule for their rules on possession, which I'd imagine would be similar, no responsibility at all for anything anytime anywhere.

 

[gonewild]

I don't buy the possession issue either, but the point is that the AOS is taking temporary possession of the plants while judging. If they don't own the plant, it doesn't make sense.

You are right it does not make sense.

 

[gonewild]

It doesn't. The AOS doesn't take possession of a plant brought in for an award. It accepts no responsibility for the plant at all. See section 5.4 of the handbook. As to exhibiting in a show you'd have to look at the individual society's show schedule for their rules on possession, which I'd imagine would be similar, no responsibility at all for anything anytime anywhere.

Do you think the USFW cares what the AOS policy says? Or a Societies rules about possession?
The issue for the AOS is that they handle so many plants and the odds put them at risk. If an enforcement agent finds an illegal species on a show table and it is labeled correctly then someone knew what it was. If the agent wants to they simply arrest the person in charge of the area and let that person prove they are innocent. AOS legal advisers know better than to rely on the FEDs use of common sense.