Guess the species Game

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Ramon and all others,
Your plant/flower brings up all kinds of feelings in me. This maybe another case of "muddying up" the species gene pool. We have had other threads on this topic, delenatii (normal colored form vs. vinicolors), hookerae vs. volonteanum, hirsutis. vs. esquirolei and of course the Cochlos. It bugs me that breeders make these crosses between closely related species and you end up with this jumbled mess with lost tags, poor record keeping or whatever. Then some Taxo dude comes along and says"this is all one species". "Can't you see, this is normal variation within the group". When this "intermediate" group of plants have traits of both parent species is nothing more then a hybridizer mess. I'm not saying all people who hybridize are unprofessional about their work but it starts there by making these crosses. The whole seller that buys can add to the problem with bad records and/or lost tags. Then the retailer can compound the issue with more of the same. There is one local retailer I'll never buy from again. Too many times they have Paphs with clearly "miss labelled" tags in the pots.
Let me tell you all a story about two plants that look exactly like Ramon's pictured here,flowers and growths. A friend of mine took a trip back in the mid to late 90's to Calif. He hooked up with a number of Paph folks out that way and they toured a lot of different orchid firms. Anyway, he got back to Houston with two Paphs and they where labelled "Paph victoria regina", both in spike. I suggested we cross the two and make the next generation. When they flowered, we were both shooked to see this unusaul combination. At the same time there was a disscusion going a round in the Paph world over the true naming of victoria regina vs. chamberlainianum. So with this plant in my hand, I thought this is it! Because we both had plants labelled chamberlainianum and they looked nothing like these plants! Chamberlainianums were huge, stiff leaved, green plants with totally different flowers and bloom habits. Our plants labelled victoria regina were smaller, blue-green with a thin maroon color to the edge of the leaves and different flower/ bloom habit. I thought I knew something that the experts missed! That chamber and victora were two different plants and not merely the same plant with two names.
Well to make this long story longer! I grew out the cross we had made and sold compots to people labelled as "Paph victoria regina". It was a mistake! I came to find out later at one of our shows these two plants were fakes. I pointed the plant out to a long time friend, Norito Hasegawa. He told me the plant was a cross that Terry Root had make between moquettieanum and glaucophyllum and that the plants were misslabelled.
Now you can see why I have problems with these same "close species crosses. It started from the hybridization and I compounded the problem:(

My plant may indeed turnout to be one of these "hybrid" species coming back to haunt me!:sob:

Don't be up set. The bottom line is I like the plant and I keeping it.

Ramon:)
 
That's what its all about anyway Ramon.

BTW. For anyone with Lance Birk's book, on page 266 there is an in situ photo of P. liemianum. Within the field of a single photo there are plants with solid colored leaves, and plants with tessellated leaves. Only one of the four plants in the photo looks like the one in Cribbs book (page 204). None of the plants in Birk's book are in flower, so who knows, but that's a lot of Paph. diversity in about 10 square ft. by any measure.
 
That's what its all about anyway Ramon.

BTW. For anyone with Lance Birk's book, on page 266 there is an in situ photo of P. liemianum. Within the field of a single photo there are plants with solid colored leaves, and plants with tessellated leaves. Only one of the four plants in the photo looks like the one in Cribbs book (page 204). None of the plants in Birk's book are in flower, so who knows, but that's a lot of Paph. diversity in about 10 square ft. by any measure.

Yes agreed re: Birk reference, but all appear to have the red-brown stripes of spots on the underside of the leaves (except the one on the very left which isn't showing us it's undersides. :) ) No other cochlos have that.

-Ernie
 
Yes agreed re: Birk reference, but all appear to have the red-brown stripes of spots on the underside of the leaves (except the one on the very left which isn't showing us it's undersides. :) ) No other cochlos have that.

-Ernie

Now keeping Lance's picture reference in mind, check out Matt Gore's post on his imported leimianums from a few months ago, and we have a rerun of that post now with moquettianum:poke:
 
I really like Ramon's flower ... nice strong colours ... whatever it's inheritance !

I also like to agree with Rick about species variation ... nature itself continues to "muddy the waters" all the time ... species survive as gene pools / populations and without genetic diversity species become less adaptable to enviromental changes. Flower structure and colour are probably under somewhat less selective pressure than, for example, genes involved in disease resistance and mycorrhizal interactions. It is also likely, given the prevalence of natural hybrids, that some species are in fact the result of ancient hybridizations. Nature selects for fecundity .... and doesn't give a fig about our pre-concieved notions of "purity".

On the otherhand ... I DO like to know what I'm buying !!!

Tim
 
Thanks Ramon, I do feel better! And BTW I do like your plant/flower. I just would not be quick to call it "glaucophyllum var. ?" until I research the plant and found solid evidence to confirm yes or no.
My post was a very narrow topic of man's intentional or un-intentional interference with God's or mother nature's gene pool. I have no problems with the genetic diversity that has been given to us to enjoy from a higher power. BTW, all the orchids we enjoy came to us without names. Like the title of one of Bob Dylan's songs "Man gave names to all the animals" (and plants!) So let's call a spade a spade and not lost the tag:wink:
 
Thanks Ramon, I do feel better! And BTW I do like your plant/flower. I just would not be quick to call it "glaucophyllum var. ?" until I research the plant and found solid evidence to confirm yes or no.
My post was a very narrow topic of man's intentional or un-intentional interference with God's or mother nature's gene pool. I have no problems with the genetic diversity that has been given to us to enjoy from a higher power. BTW, all the orchids we enjoy came to us without names. Like the title of one of Bob Dylan's songs "Man gave names to all the animals" (and plants!) So let's call a spade a spade and not lost the tag:wink:

Exactly!!!


Ramon:)
 
Weeelllll....I'm not even gonna touch the part of the topic on breeding, but, I just wanted to say that now that I look again, my moq is looking much more similar to yours (inflorescence-wise, the leaves didn't grow purple veins overnight:rollhappy:). It's just starting to pop at the seams, giving it a pointier look to the bud. I'll post any other pics elsewhere so I don't take your thread, but here's a pic of mine in bud for comparison.
moq41408za5.jpg
 
Very nice Miss Paphio! I don't have any issues with you or others adding pics to this thread. I really welcome new input, I benefit greatly as a paphio grower:clap: That's what it's all about.
When I get another chance to snap pics, I'll post another moq spike that I know is moq Xmoq because I made the cross. It looks like yours but not as far as long as yours.
 
OK, this is another moquettieanum spiking and it should look more typical for the species. It a clonal cross of 'Doc's' X 'Pink Coral'. Doc's is an old clone from Doc Emerson and Pink Coral is an old AM plant awarded as chamberlianianum originally.
Pmoquettieanum1DXPC.jpg

sorry about the picture size, can't seem to edit at work. Must be a firewall issue
 
Well, in that case, I'll race you to open? :rollhappy: I'm surprised at how fast this has popped up! (recent 1st ever ebay plant purchase, hopefully a good purchase lol, bud was just showing between the leaves when it arrived in March, so I can claim doing something right on it's progress anyway, right?:p) Here's the update today - Very pink and very hairy! It's not quite as 'bubble gum' pink as the pic looks, more toward maroon pink - but for a quick update I wasn't in the mood to look into color/lighting settings on the camera. May have to break out the tripod for another pic of those crazy hairs though!:D
moq41808forumsizelk8.jpg

:) So far I'm thinking it was a good purchase! Ebay just makes me nervous I guess:eek: so I'm anxious for this one to open.
 
And here we go, it's open! It may open just a tiny bit more and get a little yellower in the dorsal, but I think it's set the twists in the petals and such (I need an aerial shot of that later, they ended up twisted just so in a view from the top):D I'm really quite pleased with it! The color is pretty much on in this pic, and no blur from the breeze outside, so this'll do for now:p
moq42308forumsizerk3.jpg

I bought it as P. moq. - Awoo x Erwin Lee, so as far as my non-coch expertise is concerned, it is, and it's up to my standards for enjoyment! It's a first bloom, 3.25" natural spread, 2.5" tall, petals .5" wide at the base bloom:) I've always wanted one for the pink pouch and sunny yellow, so though I'd never ditch it for being less than perfect or if it's ID wasn't certain, I'm interested in opinions on it from those more familiar w/ the sp. just for curiousity/comparison sake!
Has that first (hopefully) moq opened yet Slipperking?
 
Looks like a bonafide moquettianum to me FWIW. Petals are nice and wide and well-held too. A keeper.

-Ernie
 
Well Miss Paphio I love your moq! I agree with all of Ernie's comments plus the wide dorsal overlapping the petals is what I'm looking for in a good one. You Got It! We'll have to wait a bit longer for my flower unfortuntely, the bud decided to fall off a day ago:( I did cheat and peeled the the bud open to get a look and it did appear to be a moq. The dorsal didn't seem to be as heavly spotted as yours but we'll wait and see.

Ernie, I have a primulium var. purpurescens that has heavy purple coloring at the base and having a pattern to it. Not like lieminaum or any other cochio. Any comments?
 
Ernie, I have a primulium var. purpurescens that has heavy purple coloring at the base and having a pattern to it. Not like lieminaum or any other cochio. Any comments?

Lets see. Yeah, prim pur does have a heavy red flush at the plant base.

-Ernie
 
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