Cypripedium tibeticum in situ

[TheLorax]

Not so sorry to do this but-
I believe canbeijing (the eBay seller listing the plant for sale) = yijiawang (member here).

yijiawang, Great plants you photographed from the Sichuan province of China. Is there anything so wrong with people leaving them be when they are found or is the lure of a quick buck too much for some to resist? It would appear based on the eBay listing that you may have used the area as your own personal nursery stock. For shame if this is what has occurred.

Not protect plants specially, it is belong to Panda protected area, out of the way very much, hard to reach there.

Although those plants may not be protected "specially" at the site as you evidently may have been able to dig up a few regardless of how hard they were to reach... they are protected by CITES and sending them across international borders regardless of whether they were field collected or not is a big no no without the appropriate permits.

Excerpt from your e-mail to me last night-

From: 王奕嘉Yijia Wang
Date: 2/9/2008 12:05:34 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: 有人向你的物品（Cypripedium tibeticum 2buds）提出問題

Thank you for your question, these plants will be sent by small parcel only.

Excerpt from my reply to you-

From: The Lorax
Date: 02/09/08 01:07:29
To: 王奕嘉Yijia Wang
Subject: Re: 有人向你的物品（Cypripedium tibeticum 2buds）提出問題

Hello

You did not answer my questions about the plant you are offering for sale.

Again, here are my questions-

Do you have the requisite export paperwork since this is a CITES plant and I am in the US?

Also, you don't mention a cost for a phytosanitary certificate. How much will that cost?

Looking forward to knowing whether you are in a position to offer this plant for sale across international boundaries or not.

It would appear to me someone may very well have been digging up plants from a natural area to offer for sale on eBay and that someone may very well be you yijiawang. That, based on my humble opinion, would be unconscionable.

It's a small world. If my suspicions are correct, I suggest you remove your listing.

 

[TheLorax]

Based on the removal of all the photos shared by yijiawang in this thread, I strongly believe my suspicions were correct. I did save a copy of this thread in its entirety along with the photos originally posted as well as a copy of the entire eBay listing in its entirety. Sorry yijiawang, you weren't fast enough.

This type of behavior is pathetic given the eBay listing has not been pulled. Looks as if it's going to be business as usual. Such a crying shame and we wonder why there are so many plant communities at risk these days.

Is no one else in a position to comment about what is unfolding in this thread?

 

[KyushuCalanthe]

Cyp Conservation or Consumption?

Is no one else in a position to comment about what is unfolding in this thread?

Sure, I'll comment. These kinds of things are "hot topics", so it is understandable why folks don't want to chime in.

It is pretty brazen for this person to directly sell off ebay, but not that surprising. After all, if they get caught the box will be confiscated at relatively minimal loss to them, and that will be the end of it. No big deal. Next they will find a way to penetrate a new market. No CITES authorities in China are gonna raid their house, that's for sure.

Check this person's offering of C. leniginosum in England, also on ebay. They also list a number of other plants that are without a shadow of a doubt wild collected and very likely on their way to death (especially the so call spotted leaf types).

Or check out Sunmoon's list of Cyps offered this year. As you can see it is extensive. This nursery is located in Taiwan, an impossible place to grow Cyps unless you live way up in the mountains since it is a subtropical to tropical climate there. I can guarantee you their nursery ain't in the mountains. Where are their plants coming from? I think we know the answer.

And so it goes. Virtually ALL adult Chinese Cypripediums being cultivated anywhere in the world today are wild collected (minus literally a handful). The flow of plants abroad was even bigger back around 10 years ago, but it has not abated yet, nor is it likely to until China gets more serious about stopping the trade. Indications are that officials there are indeed becoming more serious, at least according to my sources. Definitely shipments to Japan are beginning to dry up compared to even three years ago.

The truth is that many Cyp habitats in China are not in danger of imminent destruction, but they are in danger of over collection. Some species such as C. farreri, C. lentiginosum, C. subtropicum, and C. wardii have such restricted ranges that they could effectively be collected out in a very short time. In Taiwan the situation is even more pronounced since there is very little suitable habitat for Cyps there. All species are in very limited areas and at least two are under extreme pressure from collection - C. segawai and C. formosanum. These endemic species are all but gone from the wild today with C. segawai in only two known populations and C. formosanum in a handful of others, yet to this day plants are being taken from the wild...

It is interesting how all the focus of slipper orchid conservation has been on Paphs and Phrags, and at the same time Cyps have been largely ignored in spite of the fact that many of them are critically endangered in the wild. Of course species such as C. tibeticum and C. flavum are far from going extinct anytime soon, but should they be mass exported, even legally, from the wild? I know how I would answer that question.

 

[TheLorax]

I'm amazed that as of right now, you are the only one who has had the balls to comment. Please know how grateful I am that you have enough vertebrae in your back to do so.

I'd check out your links but am not in the mood to do it right now. Perhaps tomorrow.

Yes, Japan has begun to take a pro-active stance. I could see the beginning of same the last time we were there.

The harvesting of Cypripedium from the wild here in the US is a cause for concern. I can't tell you how many sites have been trampled by people who are out to make that quick buck. It disgusts me that so many remain silent about these practices because as noted by adiaphane, "It's such a treat to be able to see animals and plants in their native habitats."

 

[NYEric]

Maybe people aren't commenting due to lack of facts. Is the originator of the Cyp thread the same person selling on eBay? Someone should contact eBay to inform them that these plants may be CITES protected and illegal to transport. Maybe they'll require that that be added to the auction info. I don't go on eBay personally so I can't contact them.

 

[kentuckiense]

Maybe people aren't commenting due to lack of facts. Is the originator of the Cyp thread the same person selling on eBay? Someone should contact eBay to inform them that these plants may be CITES protected and illegal to transport. Maybe they'll require that that be added to the auction info. I don't go on eBay personally so I can't contact them.

Yijiawang has been selling wild collected Paphs for years. This is certainly not a case of a naive seller.

 

[goldenrose]

I'm amazed that as of right now, you are the only one who has had the balls to comment. Please know how grateful I am that you have enough vertebrae in your back to do so.

Lauren - I think I can safely say we commend & support your passion & conviction regarding this issue. I agree with Eric - not all of us are as educated in this area as you are, nor Tom. It's not a matter of having balls or backbone. I don't have a problem opening my big mouth, if I know what I'm talking about. What would you suggest we do? Is there something more we could do other than not purchasing plants from this individual or others like them? CITES is apparently doing nothing, the country of origin is doing nothing & ebay should be the police? If a post or thread like this were not allowed on ST, how would we be made aware?

 

[TheLorax]

Is the originator of the Cyp thread the same person selling on eBay?

Yup, they're evidently one in the same. I saved my e-mail correspondences. I contacted the seller because I do have the appropriate permits to be able to import that plant. To be quite honest, I figured I'd buy it and donate it to the local college rather than risk it possibly being shipped with a customs document claiming it was a baseball cap to someone without the appropriate permits. One thing though, I have no desire to risk dealing purchasing anything from anyone who doesn't have all their permits in place. The consequences are far too high on this end particularly if the box that is intercepted is mislabeled because the seller doesn't have the appropriate permits and isn't going to procure a phytosanitary certificate. Let's face it, the USDA is intercepting a tremendous number of these plants lately and they are being destroyed because of little greedy piggies who have no respect for anything but their own pocketbook.

The particular plant he/she is listing is clearly listed as being protected by CITES. Not at all difficult for anyone at eBay to check it out from the APHIS site. Here's what I did when I realized Yijiawang had broken all the links to his/her listing from his/her photo hosting site, I contacted eBay. I didn't originally do this because he/she was a member of SlipperTalk because I wanted to wait it out to see if he/she would responsibly remove their listing but that didn't happen and they're receiving e-mail notification of replies to this thread so they knew enough to try to cover their tracks by removing the images without ever having to log on here so I reported them. The listing clearly states the plant can be shipped to the US for $30. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that listing isn't requiring a buyer to have the appropriate import permits. Given the listing is still there for all to see and given I am evidently the only one who has reported it to date, it would be my suggestion that everyone begin contacting eBay to let them know that there is good reason to believe the listing should be pulled because the plant being offered for shipment across international borders is clearly listed as being protected by CITES and it is most obvious that the seller doesn't have the appropriate authority to be shipping this plant out of China. Also too, feel free to include cuts and pastes of my correspondences. eBay should have access to them because they are housed on their system and only a copy was sent to my e-mail. Perhaps if enough people contact eBay, they will feel compelled to do something. One thing is for sure, eBay doesn't want any more negative publicity these days. I've seen listings for Nepenthes pulled before because enough people contacted eBay about the same listing.

We don't live in a bubble. What ding dong Yijiawang does affects us and what we do affects him/her regardless of whether we are on different continents. Maybe, just maybe, if enough people take some sort of action to at least question these types of auctions that over time we may be able to help toss a monkey wrench in the native orchids being ripped from our ground and shipped overseas. It's a two way street.

 

[SlipperKing]

I've seen this kind of offerings quite a bit on ebay and wondered how they were getting away with it. I've researched back some of the sellers and buyers using the tools ebay offers and found that sellers are often not from the US as well as, buyers. BUT I have seen buyers located here in the US and think what guts these people have in buying CITIES plants! There is a electronic paper trail right to their front porch. Here in Houston we had a importer/exporter get caught up in a possible CITIES violation case and cost him a lot of time and money to get out of troubles. I'm not sure whether this person was guilty or not. So why take the chance? Feed the ego? I don't need that rush. I get a big enough kick out of growing what I already have, legally.

 

[TheLorax]

There is a electronic paper trail right to their front porch.

Bingo, don't have the appropriate permits and sooner or later it's going to bite you in the butt. Unfortunately, the percentage of illegal shipments being intercepted hasn't climbed quite high enough yet to be an effective deterrent as of yet. I suppose some out there are rewarded by that one ever so desirable species "slipping through" and making it to their front door.

 

[NYEric]

I'm going to contact my eBay proxy and have him contact eBay about untrue listing.

 

[TheLorax]

I used eBay's internal report this deal electronic submission form where all one can do is basically provide eBay with the listing number. Rather obstructive system at best (most probably by design) as I believe I had to place the listing number under restricted weeds as there was no appropriate category. Received some sort of an automated response from eBay. I replied to their automated correspondence and shared basic concerns. To date, I have heard nothing back from eBay. I suspect eBay will get to my concerns in the order in which they were received which most probably will be after the auction closes. That sort of frustrated me what with the comments made by kentuckiense-

This is certainly not a case of a naive seller.

That being said, I took the time to track down someone at the USDA regulatory office in Maryland and she claims they will take care of this. The woman with whom I spoke spent a considerable amount of time with me and I could discern from the questions she was asking of me that they do evidently have some sort of a systematized means by which to deal with these types of concerns if somebody ever figures out how to make it to that office to report an "suspicious activity". She did state they have dealt with eBay before however I did not ask any questions as I didn't believe I had a need to know. I found one particular statement made by this woman to be quite interesting. She stated something to the effect that eBay claims they aren't responsible but they really are. She seemed most interested in the fact that I had retained the e-mail correspondences between me and eBay's seller for the listing referenced in this thread and she was most interested in the fact that I had retained all of my correspondences with eBay attempting to share my concerns regarding this listing with them. The woman with whom I spoke will be recontacting me after the auction ends. The current high bidder is from the US. If the high bidder ends up being someone from the US and is a naive buyer, my heart goes out to them right about now. I don't think anyone else needs to report anything to eBay about this particular listing right about now. I believe this situation will be addressed appropriately.

Perhaps in the future it would be best to just quietly report concerns of this nature to the appropriate parties in the US. I know I'll be watching eBay plant auctions more closely now and I would hope others would take the time to do so too while they're out and about looking for plants on which to bid. By all means, please do use eBay's little report this auction button if one has any concerns about a listing and by all means please do contact sellers of any plants that raise one's eyebrows and please do ask those sellers lot of questions as you just might be creating an invaluable paper trail that may very well be able to be used by an investigator.

From: [email protected]
Date: 2/11/2008 12:35:53 PM
To: XXXX
Subject: Smuggling hotline


Ms. XXXX --

XXX. I'm getting back to you now with a toll-free telephone number for reporting suspicious activity in the future. I'm also providing you with a link to a web site where you can find additional information about the efforts of the Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service to detect and prevent the unlawful entry and distribution of prohibited and/or non-compliant products that may harbor exotic plant and animal pests, disease or invasive species.

1-800-877-3835.

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/international_safeguarding/sitc/index.shtml

I hope this is helpful. Thank you for your call.

XXX XXX
Chief, Regulatory Analysis and Development
Policy and Program Development
APHIS, USDA

Who knows, maybe somebody reading this thread who is in a position to "report suspicious activity" in the future will personally be responsible for blocking the next Emerald Ash Borer or Dutch Elm Disease Fungus from getting a foothold in our environment.

And now, I am going to begin forwarding all of my electronic correspondences to her as well as my eBay account information to enable the appropriate parties to view the correspondences between me and the person listing the Cypripedium tibeticum for sale to the US.

 

[NYEric]

"Snitches git stiches" oke:

 

[TheLorax]

"Snitches git stiches" oke:

I'm desensitized at this point in time. It's gone on far too long and I should have taken the time to track down a means by which to report these types of situations to people who are qualified to investigate them and take appropriate action based on their findings a long time ago.

 

[NYEric]

Knock knock, CITES police! I contacted my eBay proxy to register an impropriety anyway.

 

[charlie c]

I'm desensitized at this point in time. It's gone on far too long and I should have taken the time to track down a means by which to report these types of situations to people who are qualified to investigate them and take appropriate action based on their findings a long time ago.

Lauren,

Good for you!!!

It may well wind up being "tilting at windmills", but something is better than nothing.

Apparently, because of this person's grasp of the internet and Ebay, this is not a poor, hand-to-mouth local just trying to put food on the table.

This is a rape of the environment and somebody needs to say something.

Brava!!!

charlie c

 

[TheLorax]

This was sent to me earlier today, don't know how I missed it-

XXX

Illegal sales are happening all the time, whether deliberately or through simple ignorance.

As you know from previous experience, complaining is often not hugely effective. I think the relevant page for all to start with is here (You will need to be signed-in to access the page):

http://pages.ebay.com/help/contact_us/_base/index_selection.html

Click on Listing Violations and follow the procedure through.

XXX

Haven't checked out the above method of contacting eBay yet but looks a lot more promising than that eBay rat maze I ended up in where all I could do was forward the listing number.

And Eric, are you trembling in your boots yet since you snitched on this listing too :rollhappy:

editing to add-

Good for all of us charlie c, not just me but it certainly is nice to know there are others who share similar concerns.

 

[TheLorax]

Hey! Did anyone else notice that all of yijiawang's photos are appearing again?

 

[cyp8472]

Has any one contacted the bidders to make them aware of what they are bidding on? I saw this a couple of days ago and I wanted to tell them so they wouldn't buy it or a least stop bidding.

 

[TheLorax]

Probably not in one's best interests to contact the bidders.