Cattleya trianaei

Slippertalk Orchid Forum

Help Support Slippertalk Orchid Forum:

Joined
Nov 29, 2008
Messages
903
Reaction score
526
Location
Bloomington, MN
This reminds me of a puzzling thing I saw in AOS awards with Cattleya trianae 'Kathleen'. When first awarded to Bill Rogerson in Chicago in February 2006 the plant was described as "flowers light blue gray" and the lip as "blue purple apically". In the AOS register the plant is listed as (Coerulea). When Bill received a 90 point CCE in Chicago March 2008 for Cattleya trianae 'Kathleen' the flowers were described as "white; petals flushed pink, centrally splashed bright raspberry pink; lip flushed pink, margin bright magenta". This plant is not listed as (Coerulea in the register). I have to believe these were the same plant. Did the coerulea change because of plant maturity, culture differences, or even lighting differences at the judging center?

Could Istvan's plant become more coerulea with more maturity and difference cultural influences?
 

dodidoki

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 16, 2009
Messages
2,985
Reaction score
2,415
This reminds me of a puzzling thing I saw in AOS awards with Cattleya trianae 'Kathleen'. When first awarded to Bill Rogerson in Chicago in February 2006 the plant was described as "flowers light blue gray" and the lip as "blue purple apically". In the AOS register the plant is listed as (Coerulea). When Bill received a 90 point CCE in Chicago March 2008 for Cattleya trianae 'Kathleen' the flowers were described as "white; petals flushed pink, centrally splashed bright raspberry pink; lip flushed pink, margin bright magenta". This plant is not listed as (Coerulea in the register). I have to believe these were the same plant. Did the coerulea change because of plant maturity, culture differences, or even lighting differences at the judging center?

Could Istvan's plant become more coerulea with more maturity and difference cultural influences?
Many thanks for comment.Maybe, there are at least five different pigments in a flower, their balance is what we see.I think yes, pigment synthesis can be influenced by many factors.
 

DrLeslieEe

Scholar, Addict and Aficionado of Orchidacea
Supporting Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2019
Messages
5,691
Reaction score
6,001
Location
TORONTO CANADA
Many thanks for comment.Maybe, there are at least five different pigments in a flower, their balance is what we see.I think yes, pigment synthesis can be influenced by many factors.
Just like eye colors, multiple genes control expression of the pigments, which in orchids are the red/purple anthocyanin pathways. These genes can be moderated somewhat by environmental triggers to make more or less (eg more anthocyanin deposition in cooler night temperatures esp with dark reds). The mix and match of these will express the final color.

Coerulea is define as a gray tone over red, making it like slate gray tones (think of an opaque grey film over the red color, or frosted glass). If the base red is deep, the blue will look darker. Coerulea can be light violet blue, grey blue, deep blue violet, light pink blue, or grey violet. It may look more pink in yellow sunlight (eg morning sun or sunset). Best color in midday to late afternoon sun, in bright shade.

How one can tell if flower is tipo pink or coerulea is by holding a white paper against the flower. If the shade is bright red or deep pink, it’s tipo. If it has a cloudy gray tone over it, it is coerulea. If the flower looks in between, the general consensus is to move it into tipo class.

Another trick is to hold a pink tipo or semi alba flower (of same species) next to it and compare. It can be very obvious then. This base comparison resets the eye color perception, which may have been compromised by long exposure to the flower being tested.

Do note:

Pure coerulea flowers have blue lip and white sepals and petals.

If the sepals and petals have a light blue tones, it is called ceniza.
 
Last edited:

DrLeslieEe

Scholar, Addict and Aficionado of Orchidacea
Supporting Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2019
Messages
5,691
Reaction score
6,001
Location
TORONTO CANADA
This reminds me of a puzzling thing I saw in AOS awards with Cattleya trianae 'Kathleen'. When first awarded to Bill Rogerson in Chicago in February 2006 the plant was described as "flowers light blue gray" and the lip as "blue purple apically". In the AOS register the plant is listed as (Coerulea). When Bill received a 90 point CCE in Chicago March 2008 for Cattleya trianae 'Kathleen' the flowers were described as "white; petals flushed pink, centrally splashed bright raspberry pink; lip flushed pink, margin bright magenta". This plant is not listed as (Coerulea in the register). I have to believe these were the same plant. Did the coerulea change because of plant maturity, culture differences, or even lighting differences at the judging center?

Could Istvan's plant become more coerulea with more maturity and difference cultural influences?
These are two different color form of trianaes (aka different plants). One is coerulea form and the other is semialba flamea. Both were named ‘Kathleen’ by Bill.

The semialba flamea will never become blue lol. Or vice versa.
 
Joined
Nov 29, 2008
Messages
903
Reaction score
526
Location
Bloomington, MN
Just like eye colors, multiple genes control expression of the pigments, which in orchids are the red/purple anthocyanin pathways. These genes can be moderated somewhat by environmental triggers to make more or less (eg more anthocyanin deposition in cooler night temperatures esp with dark reds). The mix and match of these will express the final color.

Coerulea is define as a gray tone over red, making it like slate gray tones (think of an opaque grey film over the red color, or frosted glass). If the base red is deep, the blue will look darker. Coerulea can be light violet blue, grey blue, deep blue violet, light pink blue, or grey violet. It may look more pink in yellow sunlight (eg morning sun or sunset). Best color in midday to late afternoon sun, in bright shade.

How one can tell if flower is tipo pink or coerulea is by holding a white paper against the flower. If the shade is bright red or deep pink, it’s tipo. If it has a cloudy gray tone over it, it is coerulea. If the flower looks in between, the general consensus is to move it into tipo class.

Another trick is to hold a pink tipo or semi alba flower (of same species) next to it and compare. It can be very obvious then. This base comparison resets the eye color perception, which may have been compromised by long exposure to the flower being tested.

Do note:

Pure coerulea flowers have blue lip and white sepals and petals.

If the sepals and petals have a light blue tones, it is called ceniza.
“Ceniza” - another new term!
 
Joined
Nov 29, 2008
Messages
903
Reaction score
526
Location
Bloomington, MN
These are two different color form of trianaes (aka different plants). One is coerulea form and the other is semialba flamea. Both were named ‘Kathleen’ by Bill.

The semialba flamea will never become blue lol. Or vice versa.
I guess it is ”legal” if the expectation is that it would always appear as Cattleya trianae (coerulea) ‘Kathleen’ but it is sure confusing. I would have liked ‘Kathleen Blue’ for the coerulea cultivar to remove the confusion.
 

Latest posts

Top