Cattleya Dinard mysteries

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About a year ago Southernbelle graciously gifted me a division of Cattleya Dinard ‘Blue Heaven’ AM/AOS. I bloomed it for the first time this past week and this is a picture in 5000K lighting to get the truest color rendering:
IMG_2459.jpeg

The final Dinard genetic mix should be (warscewiczii 25%, warneri 25%, trianae 12.5%, tenebrosa 12.5%, dowiana 12.5%, and schilleriana 12.5%). The AOS AM award for ‘Blue Heaven’ described “flowers pale lavender-blue with darker lavender veins on petals centrally; lip pleasingly ruffled indigo purple with yellow throat veined lighter purple”.

I should just sit back and say, “Beautiful flower”, and enjoy it, but I can’t help being interested in the complex, decades-long, throwing of the genetic dice that creates these heritage plants. When I look at the breeding and award history of Cattleya Dinard, I see some mysteries.

The AOS award record seems to indicate that Dinard is a relatively recent hybrid with the first AOS award in 1999 when Yvonne Kinn showed ‘Kinn’ in Dallas and received an AM. Two years later ‘Blue Heaven’ was shown in Illinois by Hausermanns, receiving an AM. This is the cultivar that seems to have been mericloned and is usually for sale. No other cultivar of Dinard was awarded until 2016 when ‘Veronica’ was shown at the Pacific Northwest Judging Center by Claudia Uribe and received an FCC.

In 2021 Waldor Orchids received a JC in Massachusetts for ‘Blue Waves’, which was acknowledged to be a sport of ‘Blue Heaven’, meaning it arose during a mericloning of ‘Blue Heaven’. It was “commended for presentation of partial sepal peloria”. It had four flowers on an inflorescence, as did ‘Kinn’ and ‘Veronica’, while the awarded ‘Blue Heaven’ had three flowers. In contrast, ‘Blue Heaven’ had modestly larger flowers than ‘Kinn’ and ‘Veronica’.

However, Dinard is not a new hybrid, being registered in 1930 by Charlesworth in England. It was (Saint Gothard x Dinah) and although each of these parents was used over 100 times, they were never AOS awarded, there are no existing pictures of them, and they may have disappeared.

What happened to Dinard from 1930 to 1999? Without access to the RHS database, we don’t know about awards to Dinard in Europe. However, the breeding record for Dinard gives some interesting information. Overall, Dinard has only been used as a parent 40 times, only one Dinard offspring was AOS awarded (don’t know about RHS), and only a few offspring were used further in breeding. Dinard is not one of the great old breeding parents!

Dinard was used only 21 times as a parent from 1942 to 1962 and 12 of those were by Charlesworth. Importantly. I think the breeding record suggests that Dinard was used mostly to breed lavender hybrids until about 1990.

The most suggestive Dinard cross is Elizabeth Off, registered by Off & Sons (originators of what is now Waldor Orchids) in 1947 as (Dinard x Fred Sander).
Waldor’s website section on its history tells us that “his (George Off) most famous cross Cattleya Elizabeth Off…” so we must assume that George Off had Dinard as a parent probably before 1940. Elizabeth Off had several highly awarded cultivars, most importantly the FCC to ‘Sparkling Burgundy’. The cultivar name tells us the important fact that Elizabeth Off has a strong lavender flower. This lavender theme was repeated with most of the Dinard offspring who were used as parents, with Dinard paired with great lavender hybrids such as ‘Norman’s Bay’ or ‘Bonanza (Bracey)’.

I don’t see evidence in the breeding record before the 1990s of attempts to create “lavender/blue”/”indigo/purple” hybrids, only lavenders.
 
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The RHS to my understanding does not have the HCC flower quality award that the AOS has. I believe that an artist does a watercolor painting of both the AM and FCC awards. I think that their paintings are available to be viewed on a very limited basis by the orchid public. But access would be up to the RHS or Kew Botanical Garden. I have no idea where those images are stored.
Now as far as to what I know of the AOS system, it started around 1934 or so. There wouldn’t be any images or award descriptions prior to that date. You can’t locate something that does not exist.
When I started out as a student judge, the orchid software was essentially just beginning. A pipe dream. As a student and a probationary judge from 1995-2001, we had to resort to using award slides. Now, keep in mind slides were not complete back then. Many were lost or misplaced. A new set was created for every new Judging center. I have no idea when slide images became common place. I can imagine that photos from awarded plants might have been very costly back then to reproduce. Was that a possibility even back then? I don’t know.
I know that in preparing some of my talks that were required for my advancement, images prior to the year 1960 were very, very sketchy! Often times I couldn’t find images that I wanted to use for my talk. Toss in the fact that black and white was used back then. I do not know when color kicked in.
I subscribed to the “Awards Quarterly” back then starting in 1974. Those four yearly issues were dominated by black and white images. Color images were only in the centerfold so to speak. I can’t remember exactly when color ruled the roost! Descriptions were very limited for a number of years too. It was like they were limited to 25 words or less!
Which is a very long winded attempt by me to tell you that what you are looking for from back then does not exist. It may never did.

Prior to 1934, all awards came out of Great Britain only. They were the only game in town!
 
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Right around 1999 was when Stewart Orchids was sold to Steve McNerny who later moved the collection to upper Mississippi. That said Ed Wright of Texas (San Antonio IIRC) was somehow involved with the sale - either as a friend of Steve's or what I don't know. But that might be the source of your (and many other) plants. I know I got a few unnamed Stewart seedling via Ed around about then. I can't rememeber who took part of the collection back to Texas after McNerny went under...I want to say someone from Corpus Christi??? (don't quote me) and hobbyists in the greater Memphis-ish area might be a source of old Stewarts plants too.

This is a long way around me saying ask some old Texas people about Ed and Steve. Maybe some of them will poke their heads up here and correct me.

I want to say Fordyce (via McLellans) had pieces of Dinard and used it in breeding... sigh... don't get old. I can't remember if these ever 'took'. Anyway, it's intersting how stuff (collections) move around. You can follow the same thing with Orchid Zone plants and other companies when they wind up and dissolve.
 
Right around 1999 was when Stewart Orchids was sold to Steve McNerny who later moved the collection to upper Mississippi. That said Ed Wright of Texas (San Antonio IIRC) was somehow involved with the sale - either as a friend of Steve's or what I don't know. But that might be the source of your (and many other) plants. I know I got a few unnamed Stewart seedling via Ed around about then. I can't rememeber who took part of the collection back to Texas after McNerny went under...I want to say someone from Corpus Christi??? (don't quote me) and hobbyists in the greater Memphis-ish area might be a source of old Stewarts plants too.

This is a long way around me saying ask some old Texas people about Ed and Steve. Maybe some of them will poke their heads up here and correct me.

I want to say Fordyce (via McLellans) had pieces of Dinard and used it in breeding... sigh... don't get old. I can't remember if these ever 'took'. Anyway, it's intersting how stuff (collections) move around. You can follow the same thing with Orchid Zone plants and other companies when they wind up and dissolve.
Thank you. We really need thease stories because it is almost impossible to track things with the standard written record that is available. I have some more interesting things about Dinard to report soon.
 
I have explored the breeding record of Dinard and found some interesting information. I have updated my original post with this information, with the key parts as follows:

What happened to Dinard from 1930 to 1999? Without access to the RHS database, we don’t know about awards to Dinard in Europe. However, the breeding record for Dinard gives some interesting information. Overall, Dinard has only been used as a parent 40 times, only one Dinard offspring was AOS awarded (don’t know about RHS), and only a few offspring were used further in breeding. Dinard is not one of the great old breeding parents!

Dinard was used only 21 times as a parent from 1942 to 1962 and 12 of those were by Charlesworth. Importantly. I think the breeding record suggests that Dinard was used mostly to breed lavender hybrids until about 1990.

The most suggestive Dinard cross is Elizabeth Off, registered by Off & Sons (originators of what is now Waldor Orchids) in 1947 as (Dinard x Fred Sander).
Waldor’s website section on its history tells us that “his (George Off) most famous cross Cattleya Elizabeth Off…” so we must assume that George Off had Dinard as a parent probably before 1940. Elizabeth Off had several highly awarded cultivars, most importantly the FCC to ‘Sparkling Burgundy’. The cultivar name tells us the important fact that Elizabeth Off has a strong lavender flower. This lavender theme was repeated with most of the Dinard offspring who were used as parents, with Dinard paired with great lavender hybrids such as ‘Norman’s Bay’ or ‘Bonanza (Bracey)’.

I don’t see evidence in the breeding record before the 1990s of attempts to create “lavender/blue”/”indigo/purple” hybrids, only lavenders.
 
Thank you. We really need thease stories because it is almost impossible to track things with the standard written record that is available. I have some more interesting things about Dinard to report soon.
I keep envisioning a day when an artificial intelligence arch will awaken as you step up to it and say 'I await a question' and we'll get info on everything and anything (minus the ads and hacking). Sort of like your local library, :)
 
Remember that around WW2 many British and European plants and breeding records were lost.
Yes, it was a big loss. All of the important and fun information before WW2 that isn't written in the public domain will probably soon be lost as the expert breeder/growers from that time are gone. It is extremely difficult to go and dig through private records that do exist from breeders in the first half of the 20th century.
 
The breeding records are part of a business's assets and have their own price. If the buyer sees no value to them then they are lost. Depending on the hybrid registry to store the record of cultivars used in breeding is one solution I suppose, but it puts an additional layer of record keeping into the equation. The registrar often corrects the records but as far as I can tell they aren't publishing quarterly registration reports anymore - or last time I looked they hadn't for a year. That said I understand the registrar will look up the cultivars if you ask.

Another olde story from Ed Wright that I have no way to verify is that when he was stationed in the UK during WWII he visited Sanders at St Albans. The pending hybrid registrations were kept in a shoe box. He made it sound like they were just slips of paper stuffed in a box, no forms, no nothing, and we all know about reading other people's handwriting, (Phragmipaphium, anyone?) We (I) tend to think there's a system to things... well... we see from the recent thefts at the British Museum that not everything is cataloged, even at the best institutions, LOL
 
I have explored the breeding record of Dinard
About a year ago Southernbelle graciously gifted me a division of Cattleya Dinard ‘Blue Heaven’ AM/AOS. I bloomed it for the first time this past week and this is a picture in 5000K lighting to get the truest color rendering:
Terry, thank you for the kind words but your experience growing under LEDs back in 2017 when I set up my room, is the only reason this plant survived!!! My originally purchased plant was huge and was repotted by the vendor and divided into 3 plants for me. I killed two of them before I had the benefit of your knowledge, trying to grow catts on windowsills (I only have eastern exposure!). One plant of the 3 divisions survived, but in 4 years never bloomed!
Setting up my light room with your guidance and moving my orchids down there literally generated spikes in about 4 weeks. It was July and all it took was light!! But I still would have killed many, even with the wonderful set up I had based on your guidance, because I really had no idea how to grow catts. I just knew I loved them…
With Dinard ‘Blue Heaven’ as my first purchase, in a 10” pot with 15 flowers it was breathtaking!! I think I would have paid anything for it although the price was $75, which was an enormous amount for me at the time in orchids, I took it home and have had a love affair with large flowered catts ever since.

However, I have never bloomed this plant this well!!! Your bloom is the most beautiful flower I’ve ever seen this plant produce!

It grows and blooms tremendously well for me, but never with the form of your flower. It’s hard for me to even believe it’s off of my plant, although I know it is. Kudos to you and thank you for showing me what this plant can do, among the myriad of things I am grateful to you for.
Little did I know when Jerry Fischer (who I contacted about buying his lights) said I should talk to his customer, Terry, who had more experience than he did at that time with growing under LEDs, that I would hit the mother-load of very specific growing info AND generosity with your time to mentor me.
I am continually grateful, and thank you seems so inadequate…
 
I read with interest this post. I’m happy that Terry goes beyond the flower to check their provenance and lineage. This is what we do for our AOS student presentations, in addition to analyzing the progeny and hybrids with awards.

I decided to check on this as well to see what happened. I will add my research and thoughts on this below.

The ‘Veronica’ cultivar was actually awarded in Colombia to Claudia Uribe. The AOS judging was at the Colombian Buga show. It is also bigger in size than ‘Blue Heaven’; 16.2 cm vs 15.7 cm.

It also seems that sometime between 1974 and 1999, blue forms of the parents were mixed to create the new Dinard, possibly by the Hausermans or Carter and Holmes.

Prior to that the lavender Dinard was used to create gorgeous lavender hybrids, with the most awarded first generation one called Elizabeth Off. In total, Dinard has produced over 380 hybrids across 6 generations with a total of almost 90 awards. These include Ronald Hauserman (F3) and Star of Bethlehem (F2).

All the progeny were huge lavenders except one called Ctt. Busy Bev (2014) which flowered blue. This is likely that the blue Dinard was used since the 2004 (12 hybrids) as mericlones were available after that. Perhaps more of these 12 may bloom blue especially Hsingying Mini Dinard (x Mini Purple).
 

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