Do you know who awarded Cattleya Dinard?

[terryros]

Most pictures of Cattleya Dinard and references to Cattleya Dinard give it an AM/AOS. However, in Orchids Pro, there are only two awards for Dinard. An FCC to 'Veronica' in 2016 and a JC to 'Blue Wave' in 2021. 'Blue Wave' awarded because of some unique characteristic and it was noted to be a sport of 'Blue Heaven'.

'Blue Heaven' has no AOS award itself. Since Dinard was registered in 1930 by Charlesworth, I am thinking the AM that everyone cites with Dinard is from RHS? Anyone have access to know for sure?

 

[Ray]

According to Orchid Wiz, “Blue Heaven” received an 80 point AM/AOS on 10/20/2001, shown by Hausermann

 

[terryros]

It must be a glitch in the AOS OrchidPro app, which I would think would be definitive. There just isn’t a listing for ‘Blue Heaven’.

 

[terryros]

Found the glitch. In OrchidPro, if you search in the Full mode, you choose Cattleya as the Genus and then Dinard as the Hybrid (it comes up in the drop down). When you search, only two options show up - not Blue Heaven. However, if you do the search with the Basic function, where you enter in the text Cattleya Dinard, then 4 options show up, including Blue Heaven. Doesn’t make sense from a database standpoint. I will try and point this out to AOS. I had just started to like the Full search function but now I am worried it may be missing some things.

 

[terryros]

And now I understand. Attached is a screenshot from OrchidPro of a broad search on Dinard. Four cultivars appear. The 1999 and 2001 Dinard cultivars (including Blue Heaven) were entered as Laeliocattleya. The 2016 and 2021 entries are Cattleya, which is the current correct genus by RHS. I think the Laeliocattleya entries should have been corrected to Cattleya. I haven't encountered out of date naming by OrchidPro before. I will need to use broad search terms to avoid this in the future.

 

[big923cattleya]

Orchid Pro lists awards from the AOS judging system, not from the RHS. You would have to look up awards through the RHS.
Cattleya Dinard as was pointed out was registered in 1930 so it is a very old hybrid, getting on towards 100 years! Quite possibly there have been a few remakes. It was a classy hybrid back in its day and was used often in hybridizing. Coerulea forms of the hybrid were also made. Getting blue forms to spring up or be ‘sports’ from lavender hybrids would not happen.
It has been widely speculated that for every lavender color form of a Cattleya species, semi-albas, albas, albescens and coerulea or blue forms exist. But not all have been found in nature or discovered.
So the bottom line is when crossing the parents that make C. Dinard, whether you use lavender forms, coerulea forms, or even mixed forms, the hybrid produced is still Cattleya Dinard!! It does not get a new hybrid name.
Recent JC awards should state the reason why a JC was granted! Specifically. But in years gone by, those reasons may have slipped through the cracks so to speak. Since Laura Newton has taken over @ AOS as the Awards Registrar, she is working very hard to eliminate those kinds of errors.
When you see C. Dinard ‘Blue Heaven’ AM/AOS, the clonal name Blue Heaven appears as I showed above. That is proper.

 

[SFLguy]

This has been fixed. According to Laura
“It was due to Blue Heaven being listed as the old Laeliocattleya instead of Cattleya.”
Hope this helps

 

[big923cattleya]

Okay, there is a 5th award to Dinard, it shows in Orchid Wiz. It was granted in Germany. C. Dinard ‘Blue Heaven-Baronja’

There are AOS awards listed for the clones Veronica, Blue Heaven, Kinn and Blue Waves.
Blue Waves was a sport out of Blue Heaven and it is extremely ruffled or frilly. JC was granted for “partial sepal peloria”. So there was hints of the three sepals starting to take on a hint of color from the lip.
An HCC was granted to a clone ‘Kinn’ back on 10/9/99. Owner was from Louisiana and award was granted at a Dallas Show.
Blue Heaven has an 80 point AM from 10/20/01 at an Illinois Show granted to Hausermann. That is a really nice flower!
But superior to that was C. Dinard ‘Veronica’ FCC/AOS of 90 points granted in 7/19/16!! What a gorgeous flower that was!! Eight flowers on 2 inflorescences!!!

Here is where I got confused, the Kinn clone shows the Dallas Show and mentions Fla./Carribean Center too. I thought it was like two centers judged together, well that doesn’t happen. We all are AOS judges. But the Orchid Wiz showed it more clearly, Dallas Show and the owner of the plant lived in Louisiana!!!
Keep in mind that this was all entered by hand, probably several million keystrokes! There are bound to be errors.

 

[big923cattleya]

I did not even go down the Laeliocattleya road. It did not come up when I looked.

 

[Linus_Cello]

This has been fixed. According to Laura
“It was due to Blue Heaven being listed as the old Laeliocattleya instead of Cattleya.”
Hope this helps

Fascinating how this got quickly fixed in real time, especially on a slipper forum.

 

[big923cattleya]

Well I find that to be even more confusing. Going back to the parents of Cattleya Dinard, there are no Laelia species listed in the parentage of Cattleya Dinah or Cattleya Saint Gothard which are Dinard’s parents way back in 1930.
Maybe it was just miss entered as an Lc. And not a C.????

I need a drink! My head hurts!

 

[terryros]

As things that were Laelia were converted to Cattleya, some, but not all, Laeliocattleas would become Cattleya. It seems like it must be a manual process in the award database to go in and change some from Lc to C. Hard for it to be perfect.

 

[big923cattleya]

That is what I am referring to, there is no Sophronitis coccinea for example in the background. That was changed to Cattleya. Another good example would be Laelia purpurata which was changed to Cattleya. All of the species involved were Cattleya and are still Cattleya.
Must simply be an oversight.

 

[terryros]

Think of the domino effect as the species that were Laelia (crisp, perrinii, lobar, grands, purpurata, and tenebrous) are all changed to Cattleya. Each Lc., Blc, Rlc, etc with one of these in the genetic past may lose the "L". This is a very large number of hybrids that need a name change. In Dinard it is about 12% of tenebrosa that does the deed. I looked quickly for another example in OrchidPro and it didn't take long to find Nigrescent, a 1959 registered hybrid used frequently for breeding. It was an Lc. by virtue of about 3% purpurata in its background. When Laelia purpurata officially became Cattleya, Nigrescent became C. and then Lc. Betty Ford became C.. Yet, in OrchidPro the search results for Nigrescent still show Laeliocattleya. I would guess the task of changing all the hybrid names in award databases is enormous, substantially manual, and tedious.

 

[big923cattleya]

I understand what you are saying and that thinking is fine, it is correct but let me emphasize this again, C. Dinard was made in 1930. That is way before all of this DNA stuff happened. None of the parents that I can find have those Laelia, now Cattleya, species involved. So there was nothing changed. It was not an Lc. Hybrid that went Cattleya due to DNA.
Unless of course, I did not go back far enough. Back before 1930, things can get really sketchy!
I refer jokingly to those people as Dyslexic Nearsighted Aardvarks!!! DNA.

But in the Orchid Pro database, they have caught up with many of the changes. Not all, but most.

 

[big923cattleya]

I may have found something. One parent of C. Dinard was C. Saint Gothard. Saint Gothard has Laelia tenebrosa as a parent! That might be where the “L” in Lc. comes in??
Man I had to go back 122 years. So C. Saint Gothard was properly Lc. Saint Gothard. Interesting.

 

[terryros]

I may have found something. One parent of C. Dinard was C. Saint Gothard. Saint Gothard has Laelia tenebrosa as a parent! That might be where the “L” in Lc. comes in??
Man I had to go back 122 years. So C. Saint Gothard was properly Lc. Saint Gothard. Interesting.

Correct, it was the tenebrosa that created the difficulty. When it became Cattleya it changed Gottoiana and then Saint Gothard and finally Dinard.

 

[southernbelle]

And now I understand. Attached is a screenshot from OrchidPro of a broad search on Dinard. Four cultivars appear. The 1999 and 2001 Dinard cultivars (including Blue Heaven) were entered as Laeliocattleya. The 2016 and 2021 entries are Cattleya, which is the current correct genus by RHS. I think the Laeliocattleya entries should have been corrected to Cattleya. I haven't encountered out of date naming by OrchidPro before. I will need to use broad search terms to avoid this in the future.View attachment 37186

Terry, for some reason I always find it a chore to search (and then find) most things in Orchid Pro. From the issue you described in nomenclature to minor details, I have trouble. And it seems so clunky and slow, tge little wheel just turns and turns. I use it begrudgingly. Seems like AOS would have a better system.

 

[big923cattleya]

Gee, I am the furthest thing from a computer wiz, an idiot really, and yet Orchid Pro works great for me.
But by any chance, have you checked out the tutorials by AOS explaining how to use the program. They really helped me a great deal.

 

[terryros]

I think it takes a good amount of use to get proficient with OrchidsPro, but it is the only tool I have available to get at the information. OrchidWiz never worked on my computer platform and I think it is going away. I am sure AOS knows how important the tool is and will keep working on it.