Why are good orchid species so hard to find?

[Katahdin]

Why is it so hard to find half decent orchid species?

I can buy awarded or awardable 6'' blooming sized cattleyas for $20 - $40. Growers mericlone thousands of them and are able to sell them for only a tad more than a grocery store phal.

Are there technical difficulties with mericloning species or is there some type of cartel behavior occurring?

 

[littlefrog]

Why is it so hard to find half decent orchid species?

I can buy awarded or awardable 6'' blooming sized cattleyas for $20 - $40. Growers mericlone thousands of them and are able to sell them for only a tad more than a grocery store phal.

Are there technical difficulties with mericloning species or is there some type of cartel behavior occurring?

Slippers are (or were) difficult to impossible to clone. So you have to wait for natural divisions.

I've heard that may have been sorted out, but don't know how long it will take to make it to the market. Not sure I'm looking forward to it, will really drive small breeders out of business.

 

[Heather]

Not to mention we have lost many of the great vendors in the last decade.

 

[CarlG]

I think it's an issue of limited demand. Few people, percentage wise, are interested in species, which often have reputation for being more demanding of growing skills, vs. hybrids.

If you are tying to make a living selling orchids, or even beer money, it make sense to focus on what most people seem to want.

Me, I prefer to tilt at windmills

Don Carlo Quixote Gustafson

 

[Roth]

Why is it so hard to find half decent orchid species?

I can buy awarded or awardable 6'' blooming sized cattleyas for $20 - $40. Growers mericlone thousands of them and are able to sell them for only a tad more than a grocery store phal.

Are there technical difficulties with mericloning species or is there some type of cartel behavior occurring?

To explain in short the economics of orchids, as I am part of the people who work with industrial nurseries:

- The profit is calculated as a percentage of the final sales. A Phalaenopsis that is sold 2.7 eur wholesale by some thousands has a profit of 0.05 0.1, sometimes 0.2 eur. They can sell it more expensive wholesale sometimes, when there is demand, at 3-3.4 eur. Some months, the plants are blooming and there are no customers, in that case the price goes below 1eur, and it is a loss.

- At the end of the year the mega nurseries calculate the total spent, the total turnover, and check the profit. It does not mean that all the plants are sold with a profit. by very far.

- The reason for those low prices is that there is a huge volume guaranteed, lots of end customers. Same for Cattleya, Vanda and Cymbidium, depending on the geographic area concerned...

- Either big companies with a lot of workers can afford to grow the plants very cheaply and calculate a profit on the total turnover like that. Or nurseries that are jobless and need to 'enter money', even if it is a breakeven or loss, in the hope to find, one day, a product that makes them earn a decent amount.

- For species or rare orchids, let's say Paphiopedilum wentworthianum to take an example, it is not possible to produce plants and accept 1 eur profit per plant as an example after 2-3-4 years of work from flower to adult blooming size seedlings. Because the total market for it would be maybe 200 adult plants worldwide not more. Earning 200 eur for 200 plants is not profitable at all, and by far. It does not cover even the expenses of caring of the motherplant, or buying it.

- If we talk in square meters, the 200 wentworthianum would take 3 square meters of greenhouse for 2-3 years. If the profit on these is 200 eur, it means about 70 eur/square meter on 3 years, or 25 eur profit/square meter per year. In that case, growing pansies or philodendron is vastly more profitable on the same area.

- Next door there can be a batch of tonsum x sanderianum, which when they bloom, are so ugly, that the grower lost the production. In that case, that's a couple thousands euros of losses. Or failed mericlones, or bad quality plants/deformed.

- Some people will say that well, sell cheap what is good, and don't make much profit. The losses, this type of customer does not want to hear about them. In terms of accounting, the batch of ugly ducks that cannot be sold has to be accounted, and its losses spread on other varieties that are sold, after all...

- Many species and hybrids have a very limited market worldwide, couple hundreds to maybe a thousands plants, mightily, then the market for that variety is saturated and no one buys anymore.

- Such a small profit per variety does not allow to store money in case of problems, canceled orders, energy costs increase, etc... so it is not acceptable for most plant species, only for the mass pot-plant varieties. Alternately every month in the greenhouse in our countries costs money per pot. In Thailand as an example, the plants are outside, if they are not sold this time, next time will be fine. The worker's costs as well are cheaper, and the regulations for pesticides, nonexistent.

- When we have to use biological controls, registered pesticides, etc... in Europe or the US, in many countries, they can shove up Temik or liquid Furadan once every 6 months, killing all insects and mites... That reduces the cost dramatically.

- People who grow orchids for a living need to earn more than a toilet cleaner, that's why for many species and varieties, there is a minimal price for it.

Recently there was a huge war on Facebook about 40eur Phalaenopsis vs. the Lidl ones at 4.9 eur. The 40 eur have 3 spikes, minimum 10 flowers per spike of 11+cm, a bit cascade style. The people did not understand that it needs a bit more effort, and a 20 cm pot blocks more space on a bench, for much longer, than the supermarket Phalaenopsis... As well, huge Phalaenopsis, even at 5 eur, would not be a thing, as there is a limited market for these...

So no, the prices are not going to crash at pot plant price for 99% of the species and hybrids...

 

[Roth]

Not to mention we have lost many of the great vendors in the last decade.

There is another problem no one wants to mention as well, though it is less a problem in the US compared to Europe.

Basically, foreign vendors selling at trade shows is completely, and fully illegal:
- In the US, it is stated clearly, as it is in Europe, that no visa allows foreign people to sell plants to US persons at a show. The same in Europe.
- There is a need for a local company to import, issue invoices to the retail customers, and pay taxes, which makes it fair compared to the local vendors.
- The proper value of the plants must be declared at the customs.
- Many people find it funny when the smart foreigners declare all their plants at 1US/EUR a plant, and sell them at a show for 40-200+US/EUR
- In fact they would have to pay various taxes, social taxes when they work in the US as sellers, etc... Again, many people and societies find it really fun and nice that the foreigners can come to sell plants, it brings people to shows.

At a point it screws the economy, the foreigners come to the show, make a few dozen thousands eur/usd in cash, go back to their country, tax free. This allows them as well to outcompete most of the local businesses of the places they go, bringing them down. When you don't have to pay any taxes on the sales, then the prices can be waaaaay lower.

The shows organizers in most cases do not pay attention to those legal points. Some are well aware of the fact that they do something completely illegal, including tax fraud. Some do not realize, and see business traders who sell at shows as ' orchid lovers who supply the hobbyists with new things', not realizing the scale of the disaster...

It is akin to a nightclub who let loose drugs dealers and hookers in their premises, because it brings more people... The benefit to attend is indirect, after all.

I watch it from the outside, and it does not disturb my business, though I see many companies crashing from it over the years...

 

[terryros]

It is a bleak business model. Are we heading back to the early days of orchid collecting where a small number of wealthy people with greenhouses had all the elite orchids? Commercial vendors selling to the public were rare to none. Our pretty and relatively cheap mass-produced orchids for the public probably won’t go away, but the market for the really good stuff will be small and high priced.

 

[Roth]

It is a bleak business model. Are we heading back to the early days of orchid collecting where a small number of wealthy people with greenhouses had all the elite orchids? Commercial vendors selling to the public were rare to none. Our pretty and relatively cheap mass-produced orchids for the public probably won’t go away, but the market for the really good stuff will be small and high priced.

At a point, financially yes. Good and high quality costs money to make, and it has a limited number of customers, not matter if it is cheaper or more expensive. Been there, studied that carefully.

If you sell Paph wentworthianum for 250us, you have maybe 200 customers. If you offer it at 20 US, you have maybe 250 customers worldwide, maybe 300... The choice is easy!

The prices are not so high anyway, people pay more for smartphones or decorative stuff in their house, sportshoes, so I do not see a really big problem...

 

[JustinR]

If you are on a budget and have the patience I suggest to look at purchasing seedlings instead of flowering size plants. Its a lot of fun and you will become a better grower. Then you can also better appreciate why they are not cheap as chips.

 

[Katahdin]

The economics of nursery operations is really interesting, and it certainly makes sense why niche plants and species are more expensive than grocery store phals.

I am still wondering though - why are mericloned hybrids an order of magnitude cheaper than mericloned species?

Keeping an apples to apples comparison here is a reputable vendor selling excellent recent cattleya hybrids that are blooming sized for $40:

https://cattleyaorchidshawaii.com/collections/cattleya-orchids-2
Honestly if one was to grow any of these clones well for a couple years they would have an excellent chance of best in show in my local society.

On Etsy or eBay you can get some of these for $20.

On the other hand I have spent $1000 on a c. walkeriana clone of similar "refinement" recently



Culturally I don't see why they are any more difficult to grow.

 

[gonewild]

Culturally I don't see why they are any more difficult to grow.

It's not matter of difficulty to produce species by tissue culture. It's a matter of cost and selling enough volume. Lab investment in materials, labor and space to establish the initial culture of an orchid plant costs thousands of dollars and takes several years.
There are not enough customers buying odd species to make it worth a labs time. That's true even for small "hobby" labs.

 

[big923cattleya]

I have followed along with this thread and I have a few comments. The initial question was about obtaining quality orchid species, not hybrids.
More importantly it matters greatly as to which orchid species you are talking about. For my own personal collection, I have to tell you that I am absolutely crazy when it comes to Cattleya walkeriana. I have been obsessed with this species for the better part of 50 years.
I grew them for 35 years in a greenhouse in the NYC metro with limited success. They were not extremely common but you could find a few clones. My success was so-so.
After I was given a tip by a buddy, they grew much better with morning light, I did much better.
Then came 9 years in Florida. I still followed the morning light tip. I had about 30 different clones down there and 3/4 of them flourished!! Weeds is how I started to think of them. Compared to NYC, it certainly was much warmer. But from 2009 to 2018, H&R nurseries was the source for several clones.
Their catalog featured about 8-12 clones with every offering. But still through 2023, I can find them any time, and I still buy some. Alas, I am hopelessly addicted!!!!

But so many species are much harder to find, especially if you don’t know where to look. I use Orchid Shows as a source, I attend about 8 per year. I attend about 18 society meetings each year. I found a few there. Lastly I obtain a few on e-bay. But e-bay can be over priced garbage to put it plainly.

But finding quality species depends upon not only what species but how often do you look for them, and where.
Plus you must keep it in mind that there is an ebb and flow with orchids. Species are popular now, they fall out of favor. Some come back into Vogue, some never do. Everything is so relative. There is no sure fire quick answer to your question.

 

[spujr]

Now I want to see tonsum x sanderianum.

 

[Roth]

The economics of nursery operations is really interesting, and it certainly makes sense why niche plants and species are more expensive than grocery store phals.

I am still wondering though - why are mericloned hybrids an order of magnitude cheaper than mericloned species?

Keeping an apples to apples comparison here is a reputable vendor selling excellent recent cattleya hybrids that are blooming sized for $40:

https://cattleyaorchidshawaii.com/collections/cattleya-orchids-2
Honestly if one was to grow any of these clones well for a couple years they would have an excellent chance of best in show in my local society.

On Etsy or eBay you can get some of these for $20.

On the other hand I have spent $1000 on a c. walkeriana clone of similar "refinement" recently



Culturally I don't see why they are any more difficult to grow.

Some, but not all, mericloned hybrids have a large market including as pot plant or decorative plants. Most Cattleya species have a hobby market of a couple dozens to couple hundreds plants per variety, worldwide, per year.

That's what I said before,

5000 mericlone of a showy, pot plant friendly Cattleya with a profit of 5US is 25.000us.

5000 mericlone of the best cattleya walkeriana in the world would be a loss of 4900 plants to throw to the trash or more and a gigantic financial loss.

A realistic number for a mericlone of a top quality cattleya walkeriana would be about 100, max 200 plants sold worldwide, then the market is filled, forever. With the motherplant initial costs, the lab initiation process, which costs a lot of money ( think worker wage per hour x number of hours, not homemade guy who forgets to count how many hours he spent disinfecting the explants, replating, and saying ' oooh lab work is sooo cheap, virus test before cloning, etc...).

Many people will say ' there are plenty of customers', or ' I would buy it in a blink'. In my long extensive experience, most people saying that would not buy when plants are available. Maybe 2-3% do...

So yes, it is not a problem of culture, it is a calculation of worker's wages, nursery space cost, motherplant cost, and total quantity that can be sold on the worldwide market. For many varieties, it can never, ever, be cheap, after all.

For the Cattleya from Thailand, a flask of Cattleya mericlone, 40 plants, costs 4 US, that's 10 cents per clone. Some labs operate in quite barbarian conditions too, Burmese migrant workers, etc... that allows to have such very cheap costs.

The varieties are very showy, and they have as well a local Thai market... so most likely they did 5000 or 10.000 per variety of clone. Note that 5000 clones in Thailand would cost 500us, delivered... In Europe, about 4000-6000 depending on the lab.

And the story goes on. But basically, no one who is sane would sell rare/expensive varieties who have a very limited number of customers worldwide for ' very cheap', except if they just are suicidal or want to lose money.

As an aside, the Cattleya from Hawaii are indeed beautiful, and they easily can get an award, even FCC...

For a fun story, there is a Phalaenopsis Join Glory '361-B' FCC/AOS that is absolutely amazing. It is used as a pot plant in Europe, including to make cascade... so a pot plant can definitely be awarded FCC, and be definitely worth its FCC...

 

[Paph Paradise]

Why is it so hard to find half decent orchid species?

I can buy awarded or awardable 6'' blooming sized cattleyas for $20 - $40. Growers mericlone thousands of them and are able to sell them for only a tad more than a grocery store phal.

Are there technical difficulties with mericloning species or is there some type of cartel behavior occurring?

Maybe you aren't looking hard enough? There aren't many of us breeding commercially anymore, but you can find species.

I have only being running my nursery full time for 5 years, but we have some of the very best rothschildianum, liemianun, henryanum and fairrieanum in the world. We don't have every Paphiopedilum species available all of the time, but we do have pretty much every legal species at some stage of production. Volumes are still low as we fill the pipeline...this takes a long time.

Theresa at Hillsview mostly does complex Paphs, but she also has wonderful malipoense and charlesworthii, among other things.

To follow up on Roth's points, how many Paph tranlienianum do I need to make? I have to order 10 flasks from the lab, so that's 200+ plants. That is probably enough to sell one to everyone in the world who wants that thing. It's certainly not going to sell to a casual orchid hobbyist at a show. The same can be said for several other species.

Dave

 

[NYEric]

You can find anything you want, if you know the right sources and have the right $.

 

[David B]

All the above being said, many if not most of the best cattleya species are still in the hands of the large hobbyist grower. Blooming size established divisions are and should be used to advance the species in breeding. These plants are not readily available as mericlones and are sometimes available, such as trianae 'Cashen's ' x self. Below are trianae 'Aranka Germanske' available in the $200 range, but gaskelliana 'Carlisle' and jenmanii 'Charlie' though recently being selfed will still not be available for another two years. The below 3 plants are absolute winners, and grow like beasts. NOT available in a store near you. Cheers.