what is propagation?

[baodai]

Hello,
Can someone tell me what is propagation in tern of orchid and CITES!!!
Let's say, I purchase 10 acres of land and I collect (purchase) wild orchid plants in the area, then i would grow them on this land, years after I have offsets, Can these offsets be propagated plants?
If yes, Then can i register this land for propagation farm (nursery, lab)?
If no, Then what is the diff between propagate from seed or offset method, Aren't they have the same mother?

Furthermore, How do a train person (specially someone works for CITES) would know the diff. between a wild collection plant and a plant from my 10 Acres land? In this case, can i still register my propagation farm? because CITES can't tell the diff between the two !!!!
Please give me your input.
Thanks,
BD

 

[gonewild]

Hello,
Can someone tell me what is propagation in tern of orchid and CITES!!!

The key word would be "artificial".

Let's say, I purchase 10 acres of land and I collect (purchase) wild orchid plants in the area,

Probably illegal in your country

then i would grow them on this land, years after I have offsets, Can these offsets be propagated plants?

Maybe if you licensed your land as an orchid nursery you cold sell your plants within your country. But probably not.

If yes, Then can i register this land for propagation farm (nursery, lab)?

I think the answer may have been "no".

If no, Then what is the diff between propagate from seed or offset method, Aren't they have the same mother?

The plants you have growing under natural conditions are the same as wild. They are not dependent on your nursery for survival. In the past there were loop holes and many people collected wild plants and simply divided them and claimed they propagated them. Now most countries see this as what it actually is. Cites requires the country of origin to certify that the plants were legally produced in a nursery. The USA for example forbids the importation of wild collected plants, any plants not just orchids.

Furthermore, How do a train person (specially someone works for CITES) would know the diff. between a wild collection plant and a plant from my 10 Acres land?

CITES does not train anyone. Nor can anyone always tell if a plant was collected from the wild without extensive forensic testing. You can tell just from looking at a plant. That is why CITES relies on the government of the country of origin to inspect and certify that the plants were legally produced.

In this case, can i still register my propagation farm? because CITES can't tell the diff between the two !!!!

I think you would have a problem convincing a government agency that your farm produced orchids were the same as nursery grown. How would the inspector know if the plants you wanted to export were nopt wild collected?
I think the inspectors will require inspection of the plants growing in your nursery before they would be able to certify them. So if you show them a plant growing out on your land they must consider it wild.

Please give me your input.

I don't know what your government would say to your idea but in Peru for example they say "NO". I think the USA would consider your plants as wild as would CITES and thus you would have a problem. Even if they said it was OK now that does not mean they would still allow it in a few years once you had plants to sell.

 

[Eric Muehlbauer]

OK.....here's is my understanding of the issue. Parent plant must be legally obtained...so if it is a collected plant, it must be collected and remain in the country of origin. Plant grows....puts out new growths. The new growths, once mature, are separated. These are now regarded as propagated plants. If the parent plant was legal, these offspring are also legal. But.....too much of a gray area with these propagated plants. How can it be proven that these are really propagated plants, and not just divisions of a collected plant? Therefore, although this scenario may be totally OK with CITES, it is much easier to prove that seedlings are legally propagated. Since orchids do not appear in flasks in nature, flasked seedlings are inherently OK.....that is, if the parents were legally obtained. Any doubt, seedlings are illegal. Then it gets more complicated, as country of origin has to state unequivocally that the parents were legally obtained... All these Vietnamese paphs might be technically legal...if Vietnam claimed that they were legally collected and propagated..but as far as I know, Vietnam won't do that. So all of those plants, even 2 generations removed, are still illegal...at least in the US. This all gives me a headache........

 

[SlipperKing]

I got a headache too and all I had to do was read!!

 

[SlipperFan]

I got a headache too and all I had to do was read!!

Me, too.

 

[biothanasis]

How can a collected plant be legal since the collection of such plants is illegal??

 

[NYEric]

If you own the land you can harvest the plant and eat it, it doesn't make much sense that you can't do other things with it!
Baodai- PM.

 

[likespaphs]

If you own the land you can harvest the plant and eat it, it doesn't make much sense that you can't do other things with it!...

then again, unless i misunderstand some laws, if a road it scheduled to be built, it is legal to build a road over Cyp habitat but it is not legal for most people to collect/rescue the plants.

 

[NYEric]

True. If I was Baodai, I would take the seed pods and propogate them lab style, only a good 5-10 years work!

 

[Roth]

True. If I was Baodai, I would take the seed pods and propogate them lab style, only a good 5-10 years work!

It's much less than that actually. The hangianum you have seen pictures last year in march/april, I already have the flasks, and I think they will bloom in another 2-3 years. Dendrobium, I did falconeri 18 months ago, they are out of flask for a year, and I got 3 in bloom this year, next year, all... Laichauense, I have couple hundreds flasks done from 2 seed caps.

The problem that Baodai must remember is that he grows the plants like a westerner, I do the same, but in Vietnam, China... they are very far from good growers. If you propagate species in tropical climate, it is really very fast.

As for the CITES, the plants must be coming from legal parental stock, and be grown in a way where the work can be seen, including feeding, cutting, treating with pesticides, potting, protecting from the rain - which excludes a piece of land where orchids grow like in the wild...

Of course that's the regulations, many wild orchids are exported with CITES, and no one can notice. And the people who are really experts, either they are doing that trade, or they are fed up and no longer doing expertises...

 

[NYEric]

Thanx for the info.

 

[baodai]

Thank you Lance for your step by step explanation
Thank you Sander.
I think I will collect seed pod and propagate this way, It will take a bit longer but It will get there.
Of course, If i want to do thing the incorrect way there are many way I can approaches. (But i want to do it the right way), For instant, I can setup and register a small propagation lab, then collect and purchase wild plants and plant them on my 10 arces. On the paper it is correct but it is incorrect way to do.
My only concern is that, if i grow seedling from natural soild, event i have CITES approve, I'm afraid i can't still export it .... They can turn around and tell me this is wild plants because it is has natural soild on it. .... As you know, doesn't matter how much you clean the roots, it still have soild on it ...
It is really discourage from CITES. Now, i understand more why not many people try to raise plants from seed
BD

 

[NYEric]

Don't give up the dream!

 

[gonewild]

Thank you Lance for your step by step explanation
Thank you Sander.
I think I will collect seed pod and propagate this way, It will take a bit longer but It will get there.
Of course, If i want to do thing the incorrect way there are many way I can approaches. (But i want to do it the right way), For instant, I can setup and register a small propagation lab, then collect and purchase wild plants and plant them on my 10 arces. On the paper it is correct but it is incorrect way to do.
My only concern is that, if i grow seedling from natural soild, event i have CITES approve, I'm afraid i can't still export it .... They can turn around and tell me this is wild plants because it is has natural soild on it. .... As you know, doesn't matter how much you clean the roots, it still have soild on it ...
It is really discourage from CITES. Now, i understand more why not many people try to raise plants from seed
BD

You should ask your government agency if you can have permits to collect a limited amount of wild seed pods. Perhaps this may be possible if you have a project to register your land as a orchid conservation garden. If you have no plan or desire to break the law then asking will not cause you any problems in the future. If you can legally buy or collect plants to create your garden then you can probably use the seed from those garden plants to have legal flasks. It may also depend on whether your oechids are CITES1 or CITES2 species. As Eric said don't give up on your dream just get creative!

 

[KyushuCalanthe]

Good luck in your endeavors...too bad that political and social realities have to stand in the way of creative, sustainable progress. Hats off to your efforts!

 

[Roth]

I discussed already with the Vietnamese authorities regarding that... The main problem being that they have been screwed very badly, so they prefer to be on the more restrictive side until everything is settled. That there are jungle plants on sale everywhere, and smuggled, they are aware, and so far they try to figure out how to control.

But they don't want to issue CITES for laundering such plants. As they don't understand yet how art propagated vs. wild vs. laundered looks like, they are very 'strict'. Flasks would be a good start to my mind...