Watering

Slippertalk Orchid Forum

Help Support Slippertalk Orchid Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Speaking of tigrinum and habitat info., Some time back I saw pictures of tigrinum growing high up in the trees growing mixed up with Dendrobium noble
in Burma. To anyone that grows D. nobile, that should speak volumes
 
root structures that grow in water are different than those that grow exposed to the air most of the time. if a root grows across an open surface of tree it will be sort of hardened, but if then grows into the crotch or fork of tree where there are things holding water, that section of root will be different. usually water is moving where orchid roots are staying wet (being replenished), so that involves oxygen being moved into the water. stagnant water has very little oxygen.

temperatures make a big difference to whether or not roots and plants can be healthy growing in water. the people i've seen who have been able to be successful using s/h culture are in areas where their temperatures are warmer than cooler (general statement).. I was not successful using s/h culture with phals, I believe because I couldn't keep the plants warm enough, and got rot around the base of the plant because they were too cold. I did have air movement but that would cool things off even more quickly from evaporation. I do think though that if I had been able to be in a watering-heavy environment (using hose freely; I grow under lights) thing may have been happier but often my temps weren't warm enough. I also wonder if my water were too pure and maybe using tap water often was able to leach stuff out of the pellets?

from where I see most north american terrestrials growing, at least the 'upland' types that aren't in clay or in water, the soil is what I would expect asian terrestrials to appreciate; very moist at most time, but very loose and airy. also fallen leaves would congregate around the bases of plants, so that roots would be in a higher humidity zone. maybe loose leaves around bases of orchids would help keep that humidity higher but not necessitate more watering? just a thought
 
Yes Rick I have Lance Birk's book and looking forward to getting Averyanov's.
I've also noticed that some roots can survive totally submerged in water as long as the bulk of them is above it. They must be supplying air to the bottom ones? I have a feeling that totally submerged is different to constantly wet. Possibly because the submerged roots are not subject to attack by aerobic pathogens?
And yeah I saw that bellatulum--amazing!
If you think about it, many of the orchids we grow are "constantly wet" in nature, depending upon the climate of their habitat.

Yes, moisture can play a role in the spreading and development of a variety of pathogens, but it doesn't mean that it's a "must".

In my S/H presentation, I have a slide of a reed-stem epidendrum growing and blooming with its root system entirely submerged, so the roots must be getting their oxygen out of the solution.

My stance is that the roots tailor themselves to whatever environment they are in as they grow, so they can function optimally. Constantly wet, or constantly submerged, once they are grown, they will support the plant just fine. It seems to me that wet/dry/wet/dry is probably more stressful.

Once you've decided which way you want to go, the trick is to understand how that interrelates with all of the other aspects of your growing environment so you can make appropriate adjustments. Simply changing the water delivery without considering other stuff is a good way to head to failure. For example, a lot of beginners get the mistaken idea that s/h culture is 'the best" for all plants under all conditions, so they plop their phalaenopsis into LECA and away they go. Come winter, when thermostats are pushed low to save money, and the RH% plummets anyway, suddenly the evaporative cooling from the open, airy medium drives the root zone temperature to lows that the plant doesn't like, and they start losing roots.

I do want to reiterate/clarify an earlier comment about flushing: flushing "every time you water" is a good practice, but what I was trying to say is that doing so more often is better than less often.

No matter how you are growing the plant, flushing the pot more frequently will lead to better growth than doing so less frequently. When I used CHC or bark (straight Orchiata, these days), I tend to go with a coarser size than most folks, precisely because that prevents bridging water from totally filling the voids between particles and suffocating the roots. That allows me to water more frequently (as I don't have to wait for absorption and evaporation to open up the mix again), which flushes residues and sucks nice, fresh air into the root zone as it pours through.
 
I think too that water oxygenation has its importance. I got a system with RO water going in the tank straight out of the pipe, and got at the same time lots of problems. With the water dripping in a big tank, hence passing through air, I did not have problems anymore. Carbonates seems to play a role, and not only as a buffer.

With tap water or water where the carbonate content has been restored (passing through marble, or adding lime and CO2 bubbles to the water tank) it seems way easier to water the plants nearly nonstop with no root losses. The same when liming the plants with dolomitic limestone on top of the pots, and watering nonstop as long as there is powder, there is no root losses. When the dolomitic limestone is gone, no matter the pH or EC, problems start in my experience. It is not again a pH problem, but something else.

For people who have no problem using pure RO water and calcium nitrate, I think there is an explanation still with CO2 or something like that. It is very unclear, but would be really worth more research (maybe some algae or bacteria release something in the media after a while, LECA is 'inert' but there must be algae, bacterias, and yeasts that could release CO2).

This would explain too why RO water and rain water behave really differently when using both. EU growers used to use plain rain water frequently, but if you try that with RO water, though there is not that much difference in ion concentration, you get a terrible mess after a few waterings. The only difference is the gas content of both water, clearly, ammonia, oxygen and CO2.
 
Speaking of tigrinum and habitat info., Some time back I saw pictures of tigrinum growing high up in the trees growing mixed up with Dendrobium noble
in Burma. To anyone that grows D. nobile, that should speak volumes

I've also seen insitu pics of tigrinum in southern China growing at the base of trees in deep moss, ferns/and duff, dripping wet.

I have some rainfall data for parts of Sumatra and Malaysa, and there aren't some of the huge anual wet/dry differences there are in other jungle areas. But certainly not all paphs come from these sites too.
 
I think too that water oxygenation has its importance. I got a system with RO water going in the tank straight out of the pipe, and got at the same time lots of problems. With the water dripping in a big tank, hence passing through air, I did not have problems anymore. Carbonates seems to play a role, and not only as a buffer.

With tap water or water where the carbonate content has been restored (passing through marble, or adding lime and CO2 bubbles to the water tank) it seems way easier to water the plants nearly nonstop with no root losses. The same when liming the plants with dolomitic limestone on top of the pots, and watering nonstop as long as there is powder, there is no root losses. When the dolomitic limestone is gone, no matter the pH or EC, problems start in my experience. It is not again a pH problem, but something else.

For people who have no problem using pure RO water and calcium nitrate, I think there is an explanation still with CO2 or something like that. It is very unclear, but would be really worth more research (maybe some algae or bacteria release something in the media after a while, LECA is 'inert' but there must be algae, bacterias, and yeasts that could release CO2).

This would explain too why RO water and rain water behave really differently when using both. EU growers used to use plain rain water frequently, but if you try that with RO water, though there is not that much difference in ion concentration, you get a terrible mess after a few waterings. The only difference is the gas content of both water, clearly, ammonia, oxygen and CO2.
Hmmm... Maybe I should rethink replacing my current RO system and storage tank with an "on demand" system.

My RO tank is open-air and heated (~70°F), and I have had no issues with the water.
 
Plants evolve to thrive not just survive in a given environment. After all they have had millions of years to get it right.

Yes but the environment constantly changes (evolves) around the plant. Because the environment makes sudden radical changes the evolved plant may become not adapted to it's surroundings and perish. This happens frequently so that is why I suggest that looking at the natural conditions a plant is growing in is not necessarily the optimum conditions to copy in horticulture.

Through human eyes they may appear ratty and beaten up but they are usually perfectly healthy. Probably more so than our often bloated over-fed captives.

Correct! But do you want your plants to be ratty and beaten up or bloated and beautiful to the human eye?

Your statement that very few plants in the tropics live very long is-
I believe- just not correct.

I think it is correct when we look at the age of individuals rather than the age of species. In the Amazon most trees don't live past about 50 years.

Orchids growing on 300 year old trees just keep growing unless they get eaten or fall off.

There is a lot of disagreement about the age of tropical trees. But most are far less than 300 years old. Not that they can't live that long but they die because the forest around them changes to a point that they are no longer supported. Old trees tend to grow tall and emerge from the canopy top and get knocked over by wind. Or after extended years vines overgrow the tree and topple it.

The same things happen to an orchid growing on an old tree. Maybe it has grown 20 years in perfect light with 50% shade from a limb on the tree and then that limb on the tree suddenly falls off. The orchid is not hurt but now it is in full sunlight. In a short time that orchid will likely die. So this is why I say Nature is not constant and is not necessarily the best condition to copy exactly.

There are early records of Vandas estimated to be upwards of 100 years old and I've seen dendrobiums that would have to be at least 50.

Sure orchids can live forever in theory. I have a Zygopetalum that I have had since 1964. It was an old division from a wild collected plant when it was given to me, it could be 100 years old or more? It has suffered abuse and it has been pampered. During it's abuse times it probably had conditions very similar to it's natural environment, frequent long dry periods and full sun. When abused it looks exactly like a wild growing plant (ratty) and maybe has one or two flower spikes each year. When it was well cared for (obese), waterd and fertilized everyday it is lush and once it had 22 flower spikes......OK the point here is that orchids can live a long time and grow under many different conditions and how they look depends on how you treat them. The task of a horticulturist is to improve on nature and grow plants better than nature.

Nature dosen't have a ''method'' to keep growth under control, It just is what it is.

Nature may not have a published strict "method" to keep growth under control but plant growth is positively kept under control and the "method" for plants is the same as for animal populations...."predator and prey". We just need to realize that the predator is not necessarily an animal. A lion kills a zebra and removes it from the environment and moss might kill an orchid and remove it from the environment.... That is Natures "method" and yes "it just is what it is".

You can't seperate it's components.

Nature can't separate the components but humans can.

But you've given me food for thought and I might experiment with keeping some wetter to see what happens. Thanks for your input:)

It's all only food for thought! The correct method to use to water your plants is the method that allows the plants to grow into something that gives you pleasure.

Also we are commenting about "orchids" in general. You used Vanda as an example and I used Zygopetalum. Both of those genera have adapted (evolved) to better resist predators (drought) than have paphs or phrags.
A vanda can tolerate a lot of abuse and recover while slight abuse of a paph will result in quick death. But still the general principles remain the same.

Thinking, discussing and experimenting is how humans can separate the components of Nature and on a small scale rule over Nature. :sob: (for a moment in time).

Keep posting your observations. :)
 
Hydro guys like to use waterfalls mixed with air stones.....This mixes the solution as well as aerates with water...... Water temp also has a effect on how much O2 saturation water can hold..... 68 f being the tipping point for pure water. 66-70 f is where most hydro growers want there water temps.

Its also believed that a potting mix that can't breath properly through anaerobic respiration causes the roots to ferment. These is why its important to have airy mix.

As far as adding lime..... grape grower have been adding lime sulfur to stop the reproduction of pathogens with good results....but it doesn't kill the pathogen so they have to reapply weekly or sooner if the get a rain storm. Quicklime is also used by some. Human waste plants also use lime to kill pathogens in waste.
There are also root stimulators that protect the roots from pathogens which in effect allow the root zone to expand 100% or more. I'm not sure if it will work for orchids or not.
 
Firstly, could someone please tell me how to extract certain passages of text without quoting the whole reply? I'm still in the embrionic stage of computer litteracy.:eek:
 
Firstly, could someone please tell me how to extract certain passages of text without quoting the whole reply? I'm still in the embrionic stage of computer litteracy.:eek:

Start with quoting the whole post in your reply.
Highlight the part you want to quote. (Like for example the first sentence)
Then click the WRAP (quote) icon in the tool bar. It is 5th from the right on the bottom line next to the image icon.
That puts the selected area into a block quote by inserting this little piece of code at the beginning....
and this at the end ....[/QUOTE ].
The above [/QUOTE ] has a space added to keep it from working, without the extra space it does this to the text.....
and this at the end ....

Then you can type something under it.
Then if you want to quote the next original sentence repeat the process. Or you can delete any text that you don't want to quote.
 
If you think about it, many of the orchids we grow are "constantly wet" in nature, depending upon the climate of their habitat
.

That may be but they don't have their roots surronded by an impermiable plastic only allowing gas-exchange from a limited area. Therefore if we constantly keep them as wet as habitat, they have to deal with same amount of water and less O2 arriving at their roots. Thats why people are seeing improved performace with basket culture.


In my S/H presentation, I have a slide of a reed-stem epidendrum growing and blooming with its root system entirely submerged, so the roots must be getting their oxygen out of the solution.

More likely they are getting their O2 brought down from their leaves.
It's believed most plants have this ability to a greater or lesser degree when faced with this type of situation.



.
 
I think too that water oxygenation has its importance.

I think that with general horticulture, oxygenating irrigation water is useless.
If it had any effect it would only last a matter of mins. Plant roots get their 02 by diffusion. The larger the soil particles the faster the diffusion. Even pouring water over a pot sucks in air as it drains out the bottom but this too only has a very short lasting effect.

With tap water or water where the carbonate content has been restored (passing through marble, or adding lime and CO2 bubbles to the water tank) it seems way easier to water the plants nearly nonstop with no root losses
.

Roots give off co2. I don't get how adding more helps?
 
I've also seen insitu pics of tigrinum in southern China growing at the base of trees in deep moss, ferns/and duff, dripping wet.

I have some rainfall data for parts of Sumatra and Malaysa, and there aren't some of the huge anual wet/dry differences there are in other jungle areas. But certainly not all paphs come from these sites too.

Interesting. It shows how adaptable they can be. If they are growing with D.nobile, it also shows that they must experience lenghthy periods without rain and a fairly pronounced dormancy. Some mosses and ferns can also go dormant for months.
 
Nature can't separate the components but humans can.

Aren't humans and everything they do ( even though they are a cancer of meat-bags destroying everything in their path.--'' generally '' notice I say ''they'' not ''we'' ) part of nature?:poke:

Thank's again for the computer tips Lance.
 
Last edited:
Aren't humans and everything they do ( even though they are a cancer of meat-bags destroying everything in their path.--'' generally '' notice I say ''they'' not ''we'' ) part of nature?:poke:

Yes, humans are part of it. But somehow humans became able to seperate the parts of nature and use that ability for an unbalanced lop sided gain. So maybe humans aren't part of Nature at all. :(
Take a look at this new clip from Peru.... Non Human Mummy
Maybe we can blame the problem on him.

Thank's again for the computer tips Lance.

Glad to help!
 
.

That may be but they don't have their roots surronded by an impermiable plastic only allowing gas-exchange from a limited area. Therefore if we constantly keep them as wet as habitat, they have to deal with same amount of water and less O2 arriving at their roots. Thats why people are seeing improved performace with basket culture.

More likely they are getting their O2 brought down from their leaves.
It's believed most plants have this ability to a greater or lesser degree when faced with this type of situation.


Recently I've had to do a bunch of research on wild rice (Zanzinia) and commercial rice culture.

Wild rice germinates under water. In fact it germinates under ice sheet, under water under piles of old rotten dead stem from the previous growth season. Oxygen is 00000 at the seed and roots. The germinated plant grows like crazy (without oxygen) until it breaks surface, then it does induct oxygen backwards through the stem back to the root system for nocturnal respiration needs of the growing plant. However, the lack of soil oxygen is not relevant to successful growth, but the depth of anaerobic condition is. At low to no oxygen, low Oxidation Reduction Potential (ORP) conditions prevail. But if you develop strongly reducing conditions, from say sulfur reducing bacteria, methane producing bacteria, reduced iron... and really drive the ORP to low values then the rice seedling is unable to run a whole host of normal metabolic functions, and seedling dies.

In comparison to what low DO means for rice, the DO in an orchid pot with dripping damp potting media is nowhere near 0. Until you achieve "septic" conditions under SH conditions there is still DO in that water.

I've done a lot with manipulating ORP in both oxic and anaerobic systems to modify microfloral community structure, and there are significant differences when you do that. But I really think we are pushing into very complex systems at a very rudimentary level of understanding to really make a significant difference in how we grow orchids.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top