Slipper Orchid Conservation Classification

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Mark Sullivan

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CITES lump classifies Phragmipedium and Paphiopedilum species as Appendix I and all other Orchid species (Cypripedium) as Appendix II http://www.cites.org/eng/app/appendices.shtml
Admittedly this all seems hastily done and not based on science.
The IUCN Red List of Threatened Species is science based but the list is anemic and only list 9 Paphiopedilums, 11 Cypripediums, and 0 Phragmipediums. http://www.iucnredlist.org/
Orchid conservation is in dire need of a good list of orchid species that are threaten with extinction, endangered, and such.
How would you rate various slipper orchid species endangered status? or change CITES classification of slipper species?
Can we come up with a list conservation list of slipper species through the forums knowledge or research?
This thread I guess is for general comment on the question. Feel free to start new threads on specific genus or even species level.
 

Rick

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This may be a tough one Mark.

Few of us actually get into the jungles to conduct field ( or local market) census. We have to rely on second hand info.

A handful of authors that have conducted surveys produce seemingly contradictory information. No matter how rare Averyanov says a plant is, Xaviar says they are as common as dandelions. Both have spent a lot of time in Vietnam.

There are huge debates over just the definition of what is rare and/or threatened.

Enforceability (at the import stage) is yet another issue because in many cases without a flower on the plant it can't be identified.

May need to handle all the above topics separately, starting with what is the definition of rare, threatened and endangered.
 
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Braem

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This may be a tough one Mark.

Few of us actually get into the jungles to conduct field ( or local market) census. We have to rely on second hand info.

A handful of authors that have conducted surveys produce seemingly contradictory information. No matter how rare Averyanov says a plant is, Xaviar says they are as common as dandelions. Both have spent a lot of time in Vietnam.

There are huge debates over just the definition of what is rare and/or threatened.

Enforceability (at the import stage) is yet another issue because in many cases without a flower on the plant it can't be identified.

May need to handle all the above topics separately, starting with what is the definition of rare, threatened and endangered.
This argument is futile ... ... there will NEVER be agreement.

Cribb once said the besseae habitats were destroyed, while people visiting those same habitats shortly thereafter found hundreds if not thousands of plants. Cribb claimed the same about sanderianum, and shortly thereafter, two independent sources told me that they had been in the habitat and were not able to set one step without stepping on a plant ....
 
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valenzino

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I agree,is impossible to have a real discussion about it.I also have experiences about it....I have seen some years ago thousands topperii in a place should be extinct....just seen few months ago a huge qty of supardii big type,and the last news were that all the mountain where they use to grow was burned down....Or things like Bulb vaginatum that dont grows in south borneo (writen on some books and can see on distribution maps)and i've seen thousands plants in flower in a river near Pontianak...so there is no real information....we dont have an IPhone with the"Orchidsdistribution map" through GPS :rollhappy::rollhappy:
 

Rick

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This argument is futile ... ... there will NEVER be agreement.

Cribb once said the besseae habitats were destroyed, while people visiting those same habitats shortly thereafter found hundreds if not thousands of plants. Cribb claimed the same about sanderianum, and shortly thereafter, two independent sources told me that they had been in the habitat and were not able to set one step without stepping on a plant ....


I know, and that always seems to justify someone coming in and turning the place into a golf course, airport, copper mine, or palm oil plantation. And then wow!! no more sanderianum! Maybe they'll start growing in the tops of the palm trees??

Of course if it wasn't for the sky scrapers of New York peregrine falcons would be extinct and now as common as sparrows.:poke:

Is the argument supposed to actually fix anything or make us think twice about turning the world into a human hive of concrete and deserts?

It's not science fiction that the worlds forests are shrinking, and extinctions are on the rise. When old people say "what the hell, it's futile", It really comes off to me that this generation has a death wish for the future generations because of some grievance they have with the society they presently live in.

Just say it. "I hate the world, the people on it, and I want everything to die and go away."
 
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Braem

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I know, and that always seems to justify someone coming in and turning the place into a golf course, airport, copper mine, or palm oil plantation. And then wow!! no more sanderianum! Maybe they'll start growing in the tops of the palm trees??

Of course if it wasn't for the sky scrapers of New York peregrine falcons would be extinct and now as common as sparrows.:poke:

Is the argument supposed to actually fix anything or make us think twice about turning the world into a human hive of concrete and deserts?

It's not science fiction that the worlds forests are shrinking, and extinctions are on the rise. When old people say "what the hell, it's futile", It really comes off to me that this generation has a death wish for the future generations because of some grievance they have with the society they presently live in.

Just say it. "I hate the world, the people on it, and I want everything to die and go away."
That does not justify anyone coming in to built anything .. (I am a golfer too). But that does not do anything to the fact that Cribb and the CITES mafia have been proven to be liars ...

The world is turning into a concrete desert because of one problem: overpopulation of Homo sapiens ... and this has NOTHING to do with the love for orchids.
 

Mark Sullivan

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This may be a tough one Mark.

May need to handle all the above topics separately, starting with what is the definition of rare, threatened and endangered.

Rick you make some good points. I think there should be a separate thread on definitions. One possible start is how does the Red List define and classify. When I or someone else has the time we can post this in a new thread.
 

Mark Sullivan

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Yes there is going to be debate. It is going to take time. Not all species will be conclusively resolved. In fact status will change. There will be question marks behind many species.
It is a big project but I think we can do better than CITES lumping and the Red List anemic list. They set a low bar so achieve something better probably is not that hard.
It will take research. It will take contacting scientist and individuals in location with knowledge but the internet makes this easier than in the past. I have found people very forth coming with information. Also it does seem that there is some degree of knowledge already with people on this forum. Through the process I am sure we will learn a lot more about slipper orchids, habitats and threats.
It will be hard to do a complete definitive classification. It won't be hard to to do a better list than CITES or the Red List of threaten and endanger species.
 

Rick

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That does not justify anyone coming in to built anything .. (I am a golfer too).

I see it (and experience it) all the time as justification in the US. "There's plenty out there, so what's one more acre for subdivision, one more harvest of cod, or one more golf course. And since I have the $$$ and the snail darters don't they deserve the bulldozer".

The world is turning into a concrete desert because of one problem: overpopulation of Homo sapiens ... and this has NOTHING to do with the love for orchids.

That's definitely the case with a lack of love for orchids, turtles, crayfish.................. supposedly we are smarter than the rest of the monkeys. So maybe in the future we can get past the love of self to cherish something more than golf, blondes, and beer.

Above
 
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Braem

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Rick you make some good points. I think there should be a separate thread on definitions. One possible start is how does the Red List define and classify. When I or someone else has the time we can post this in a new thread.
One can define as many red lists as Eucledian maths will allow ... what good will they do?? Red lists do not protect habitats.
 
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SlipperFan

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The world is turning into a concrete desert because of one problem: overpopulation of Homo sapiens ... and this has NOTHING to do with the love for orchids.
I'm in total agreement. Cities, conservation, and all the attempts to save species will be futile until we can control human reproduction.

I don't see a lot of hope for that to happen.
 

Mark Sullivan

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Red Lists what good do they do?

One can define as many red lists as Eucledian maths will allow ... what good will they do?? Red lists do not protect habitats.

A list of endangered, threatened orchids allow for the better use of resources and effort by prioritizing what can be saved, what is needed, and better able to react to threats. Organization- Triage. If you don't know what to protect than you will not know what habitat to protect or be very effective in conservation.
 

Mark Sullivan

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Futile?

I'm in total agreement. Cities, conservation, and all the attempts to save species will be futile until we can control human reproduction.

I don't see a lot of hope for that to happen.

So are you saying we should not try to conserve orchids in their habitat because people will mow everything down anyway?

I believe we should try and conserve orchids in the wild as best we can and hope that we solve the human population problem before everything gets mowed down. I hope that the generations after us will be smarter, have better information, technology, and an understanding of the world around us. That they will thank the people before them that did conserve habitat from destruction so that they can enjoy it and maybe reverse the damage.

Eventually there will be a point when a critical mass of the population will see that the direction we are head isn't going to work and changes need to be made, than we will have to work with what have. What we have not destroyed.
 
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Braem

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A list of endangered, threatened orchids allow for the better use of resources and effort by prioritizing what can be saved, what is needed, and better able to react to threats. Organization- Triage. If you don't know what to protect than you will not know what habitat to protect or be very effective in conservation.
I fully agree as long as you protect the habitats ... if you don't (AND WE DO NOT), there is no point in listing the species in those habitats ... to the contrary, such lists are counter productive, as attention (and funds) is drawn away from the habitats that should be protected.
You can turn it any way you want, as long as you don't protect the habitats all the rest is hot air and a waste of time, effort and money.
 

Mark Sullivan

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Like lemmings to a cliff

I fully agree as long as you protect the habitats ... if you don't (AND WE DO NOT), there is no point in listing the species in those habitats ... to the contrary, such lists are counter productive, as attention (and funds) is drawn away from the habitats that should be protected.
You can turn it any way you want, as long as you don't protect the habitats all the rest is hot air and a waste of time, effort and money.

I fully agree. I am not sure the human race as a whole has come to the point of realization that we must protect habitats and use the earths resources more wisely. Things may still have to get worse before human's really make conservation a priority. Or maybe we will be lemmings and just jump off the cliff with no realization. It is hard swimming against the tide and convincing enough people to turn the tide from the cliff. What also makes it hard is most of us now will be dead before human's get to that cliff.
 

NYEric

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Just to put my 2 cent in, the habitat is the planet. There are many examples of plants historically disappearing from an area. Why? Some chemical component added or removed from the local environment has made it impossible for the plants to survive, whatever... IMO, all orchids are endangered in the wild. At the rate we are going we will pollute and/or destroy our environment to the point that we may find ourselves, as a species, endangered. Should we stop all trade of orchids? Of course not, but, without taking efforts to study and preserve orchids in the wild we will surely find many species gone before long.
 

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