Should I self the kovachii I just got awarded?

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The whole process of bloom initiation, growth, fertilization and ripening of the seeds is governed by plant hormones. Allowing the plant to carry a capsule to maturity completes the hormone cycle of reproduction and that sends some plants the signal that it's time to die now.

Cutting a spike at any point distrupts the reproductive hormone cycle and the plant's response, now that it cannot reproduce, is to keep growing and try to bloom again.

Cutting the flowerstem on a small or weak Phrag, or cutting the flower before a capsule is able to form, interupts the reproductive cycle and that sends the (hormonal), message to the plant to rev up and grow more foliage, instead of wimp out, give up and wither away because it's job of reproduction is done.

There's another way to look at this. Once the plant is blooming , the blooming action is expending nutrients and energy. Starting a capsule is essentially the same (energy wise) for an orchid as cutting the spike. It should truly produce a hormonal signal that "flowering energy and resources are no longer needed", and should start it on the path of producing a new growth while the capsule takes care of itself.

Yes, its job of luring a pollinator in for sexual reproduction is now done and it can proceed to asexual budding now that the blooming switch has been turned to off with pollination.
 
It should truly produce a hormonal signal that "flowering energy and resources are no longer needed", and should start it on the path of producing a new growth while the capsule takes care of itself.
Yes, I agree. That's how it is supposed to work with a plant like a Phrag. However, "should" is the key word here. If the plant only has energy reserves to either bloom and carry a capsule, or, produce a new growth, allowing it to bloom is sealing it's fate. That's the risk one takes when pollinating any first bloom seedling. Of course, we are talking about stunted, weak, or juvenile plants here, not normal, healthy, mature plants. This entire debate is based on the assumption that the plant in question is quite young and therefore, possibly not energetic enough to do a good job of both blooming/producing seeds AND putting on new growths.

Personally, in the case of a specific plant that is particularly valuable, of high sentimental value, or important to me in some other way, I'd never allow it to bloom; or set seeds unless it was fully mature and in the peak of health. There is no reason to believe that his kovachii is not in the peak of good health; but, I do get the feeling that it is young and not yet up to it's full potential, as many Paphs and Phrags are not on their first bloom. That is because they are young and therefore, small, resulting in them not being up to the task (energywise), of doing their very best. In that case, I would not want to further stress such a plant by causing it to carry a capsule. Carrying the capsule could or should (whichever you prefer), as Rick suggests, send the signal to begin a new growth. But, if the energy reserves are low, that signal could be misinterpreted as a signal to put EVERYTHING into the capsule at the expense of it's own life.
 
I agree with you John. If this were my plant I wouldn't want to take a chance with it. There is always the next flowering when it has much more maturity. Taking a chance now and possibly losing the plant means there is no 'next time'.
 
Y But, if the energy reserves are low, that signal could be misinterpreted as a signal to put EVERYTHING into the capsule at the expense of it's own life.


Which goes back to the assumption that significant reserves (energetic or material) go into making a capsule or new growths.

This is orchids not corn ,and no significant resources come out of the plant to produce seed. The capsules are virtually self sustaining (probably another reason why it takes a year for a paph to produce a capsule while a corn plant matures an ear of corn in a few weeks.
 
jhoff: Did you say in another thread that this plant did try to spike last year, but the spike rotted off? Is so, then wouldn't the energy that it saved last year be transfered to this flowering? This flower, then would be 'better' than the previous blooming, since I hear a lot that Phrag flowers 'improve' in subsequent bloomings. This is a comment on the quality of the flower and number of flowers (just 1), but also that the plant should be strong enough to hold a pod, since it is on it's second blooming already. Just an amateur's thoughts.:)
 
jhoff: Did you say in another thread that this plant did try to spike last year, but the spike rotted off? Is so, then wouldn't the energy that it saved last year be transfered to this flowering? This flower, then would be 'better' than the previous blooming, since I hear a lot that Phrag flowers 'improve' in subsequent bloomings. This is a comment on the quality of the flower and number of flowers (just 1), but also that the plant should be strong enough to hold a pod, since it is on it's second blooming already. Just an amateur's thoughts.:)

Jeff does mention that in the first thread on this plant, which suggests that this is a multigrowth plant, (and should have more resources than a single growth plant).

He also mentions that this plant is one of a half flask of plants he's raised, so he has about another dozen NBS or BS kovachii plants in his possession to tide him over if this one gets set back from this breeding experiment.
 
If you ask someone who is in the trade like me...

You can self it and sell the flasks for a very expensive price to Japan and eventually Taiwan. If you can save the energy and not self it, as soon as you can divide it, you can sell a division a premium to Japan, or exchange against plants they usually do not sell for money, that's for sure. Because of the award, people are willing to pay really high price for it...
 
If you ask someone who is in the trade like me...

You can self it and sell the flasks for a very expensive price to Japan and eventually Taiwan. If you can save the energy and not self it, as soon as you can divide it, you can sell a division a premium to Japan, or exchange against plants they usually do not sell for money, that's for sure. Because of the award, people are willing to pay really high price for it...

That's probably already understood Xavier. I would suspect that since most of us are not making a living on orchids, the $ is not our primary motivator.

There is so much criticism of the hobby with respect to lack of conservation, that I like to use TM as a way to disperse large numbers of seedlings at a fairly low price.

Flasks of suk, roth, awarded roth, PK, all go out the door at $32 a flask first come first served.

Is that socialized orchid growing??
 
jhoff: Did you say in another thread that this plant did try to spike last year, but the spike rotted off? Is so, then wouldn't the energy that it saved last year be transfered to this flowering? This flower, then would be 'better' than the previous blooming, since I hear a lot that Phrag flowers 'improve' in subsequent bloomings. This is a comment on the quality of the flower and number of flowers (just 1), but also that the plant should be strong enough to hold a pod, since it is on it's second blooming already. Just an amateur's thoughts.:)

The plant has one relatively small growth that is flowering and a smaller older growth. That is it......Jerry has larger plants that have not flowered yet. Having seen the plant, it has a way to go before it is truly mature, perhaps a couple of years. Putting seed on it is not very prudent at this time unless one is willing to lose the plant.
 
Which goes back to the assumption that significant reserves (energetic or material) go into making a capsule or new growths.

This is orchids not corn ,and no significant resources come out of the plant to produce seed. The capsules are virtually self sustaining (probably another reason why it takes a year for a paph to produce a capsule while a corn plant matures an ear of corn in a few weeks.

Where does a phrag store energy and what would this stored energy be used for and how?

I agree with you on the energy reserve point. I don't think plants like phrags have energy reserves that are saved or drained by plant growth. They tend to get energy from growth from light and nutrients and produce what they need when they need it. If a plant has bad roots and is not able to pick up water then adding any growth (mass) that taxes the availability of moisture is bad for the survival of the plant. But I think that has more to do with the intake of water and not stored energy.
 
The plant has one relatively small growth that is flowering and a smaller older growth. That is it......Jerry has larger plants that have not flowered yet. Having seen the plant, it has a way to go before it is truly mature, perhaps a couple of years. Putting seed on it is not very prudent at this time unless one is willing to lose the plant.

I guess we'll see what happens by the time spring rolls around and the capsule ripens. I hope that Jerry still has his plant; but, considering the way Erwinia can eat up a stressed and/or weakened plant overnight, I'm concerned for it. Good luck, Jerry! I hope my concerns are unfounded.
 
I agree with others on this one! It would be safer to pollinate a multigrowth plant with 5-7 growths! After it produces a seedpod the plant's new growth could shrink to a very small size or no new growth! My friend who judged your plant said it is a really nice.


Paphman910
 
but, considering the way Erwinia can eat up a stressed and/or weakened plant overnight, I'm concerned for it.

Now this would be a separate debate altogether.

I think I sent you this paper also, that susceptibility to erwinia is caused by excess K in plant tissues and subsequent lack of Ca. Any new leaf or root growth at the base of the plant can trigger an erwinia attack, and has nothing to due with "stress" or abnormal resource allocation. Pinch off spikes before or after blooming, and a plant overloaded with K is just as likely to die from erwinia when it goes to add roots or growths.

So I also suggested that Jerry drastically reduce the K and promote access to Ca/Mg. Now would also be a good time to top dress with a dash of bone meal or aragonite sand.
 
So just to be clear.....
Is this a weak small plant?

I assumed that since it was judged and awarded that it must be in good health?

The fact that it may be a single growth does not mean it has only had one growth in it's life. Pk tends to not to keep old growths once the new growth has started to mature. With Pk don't expect to have a pot full of old growths. A 2 growth plant is likely 2 new growths on each side of an old one that withered away.
 
I agree with others on this one! It would be safer to pollinate a multigrowth plant with 5-7 growths! After it produces a seedpod the plant's new growth could shrink to a very small size or no new growth! My friend who judged your plant said it is a really nice.


Paphman910

Now this is what you told me about breeding my roth in 2006. After capsule formation it put on several new growths with no problem at all.

About a dozen flasks of our cross with your roth went out the door at Troys and I'm still raising seedlings to this day.

However, all this was from my high K days and the plant went from about 10 to 0 growths from end of 2009 to 2010 blooming the whole way out. I don't think this was delayed stress reaction to the 2006 breeding, but my novice inability to understand nutritional antagonism.
 
Now this is what you told me about breeding my roth in 2006. After capsule formation it put on several new growths with no problem at all.

About a dozen flasks of our cross with your roth went out the door at Troys and I'm still raising seedlings to this day.

However, all this was from my high K days and the plant went from about 10 to 0 growths from end of 2009 to 2010 blooming the whole way out. I don't think this was delayed stress reaction to the 2006 breeding, but my novice inability to understand nutritional antagonism.

So how big are they now?

I think you got lucky on a vigorous roth!

Paphman910
 
So how big are they now?

I think you got lucky on a vigorous roth!

Paphman910

I have a couple with 8" or so leaf span and a few others 6". But I'm chalking up a bunch of my seedling failures to high K too.

I moved the most promising seedlings to baskets in Jan of this year, and they have just about doubled in size since then. More growth than in all the previous 2 years out of flask.

I've been nursing along a Noyo X Rex seedling since 2002. Boom and bust growths, but never blooming. Always "compact" pale growth. I split the two remaining growths into separate baskets, cut K and plowed in the Ca/Mg. Now its starting to look like a normal roth. One division has added 4 growths since Jan. The oldest "new" growth is bigger than the parent. The original "old" growth started a new "keiki" like growth from its crown. Maybe it will actually bloom this coming spring.
 
That's probably already understood Xavier. I would suspect that since most of us are not making a living on orchids, the $ is not our primary motivator.

There is so much criticism of the hobby with respect to lack of conservation, that I like to use TM as a way to disperse large numbers of seedlings at a fairly low price.

Flasks of suk, roth, awarded roth, PK, all go out the door at $32 a flask first come first served.

Is that socialized orchid growing??

Jhoff for flasks of kovachii AM/AOS x self, if he gets enough flasks, or for a division of his awarded one, can get from many nurseries either a lot of cash ( that is not so interesting in a way... I am not interested either, usually I prefer to exchange very expensive plants), or divisions of plants he could just dream of. As a fact, there are plants I always refused to sell, but if someone had something I was highly interested, I could make an exception and divide such plants. In Japan, an AM/AOS kovachii division could get a lot of interesting divisions in exchange. In the USA I am sure some of the paphs and phrags breeders could exchange a lot of things for a division too.

If you have an awarded paph, you would be really surprised to see, if you offer a division to some pros growers, what they can offer in exchange from their own breeding stock, believe me...

As to whether self it or not, I think if the plant has a good active root system with active growths, there is little risk. I have seen fresh wild kovachii being selfed on their jungle flower spike, and the plants did not have any subsequent problem ( they were in marble chips and bark, constant watering, so that would match the extra calcium requirements, and low K...)
 

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