Sanderianum alba?

[Theodoreorchidking]

So I'm not sure how orchid crossing works with producing alba flowers. However is there a possibility to get a sanderianum alba, and how would someone go about producing one? Also could rothschildianum ever become an alba version
Sorry if this is a stupid question but I started think how cool a alba sanderianum would look

 

[Roth]

So I'm not sure how orchid crossing works with producing alba flowers. However is there a possibility to get a sanderianum alba, and how would someone go about producing one? Also could rothschildianum ever become an alba version
Sorry if this is a stupid question but I started think how cool a alba sanderianum would look

It existed an aureum sanderianum that I saw in 2002 at Au Yong in Kuching.

It was already sold to Japan, I would suspect to Fuji Orchids back then.

It fully disappeared from the records, like the clump of Paph praestans alba that I saw by Slamet in Tretes in full bloom in 2005, sold to Japan...

 

[Theodoreorchidking]

It existed an aureum sanderianum that I saw in 2002 at Au Yong in Kuching.

It was already sold to Japan, I would suspect to Fuji Orchids back then.

It fully disappeared from the records, like the clump of Paph praestans alba that I saw by Slamet in Tretes in full bloom in 2005, sold to Japan...

Gosh that is sure a long time ago for it not being divided, crossed, or at least shown off. I wonder if it died or something. Probably a wealthy collector bought it. Now days you can get majority of the orchids out there: kovachii was new and now you can get it. However something like this is a real unicorn that you would hide like a stradivarius
Can you breed them to be like that or is it just a one in a million lottery

 

[Tony]

Alba St Swithin has been made from sib crosses of St Swithin using philippinense alba so in a few more generations I'm sure we'll have an alba roths lol

 

[Happypaphy7]

There's no comparison between regular species like kovachii and a rare alba form of a species, which has generally has much smaller sample size to work with. Some are rarer or just harder to keep it going due to lack of genetic variations I assume?
For example, delenatii var. album is quite readily available every few years and they are easy to cultivate. The same can't be said about other species like micranthum, malipoense, bellatulum and purpuratum.

 

[clearsky57]

My suggestion is reach out to Sam Tsui, or Guido Braem, as either of those fellows would know of any provenance or history on albas.....

 

[Guldal]

Alba St Swithin has been made from sib crosses of St Swithin using philippinense alba so in a few more generations I'm sure we'll have an alba roths lol

We have already encountered Roth aureum in an (in)famous episode of Inspector Barnaby: "Orchis Fatalis" (Episode 38; series 8, 3).
The authors of the episode have caught the madness, argumentativeness, bellicosity and potential murderousnes of orchid people bang on the head. What is a major letdown is the representation of the flower of discord - nothing near Rothschildianum, just a rather plain "American hybrid".

 

[DirGo]

We have already encountered Roth aureum in an (in)famous episode of Inspector Barnaby: "Orchis Fatalis" (Episode 38; series 8, 3).
The authors of the episode have caught the madness, argumentativeness, bellicosity and potential murderousnes of orchid people bang on the head. What is a major letdown is the representation of the flower of discord - nothing near Rothschildianum, just a rather plain "American hybrid".

link to that mentioned Roth aureum

 

[dodidoki]

link to that mentioned Roth aureum

What on Earth is this????

 

[DirGo]

What on Earth is this????

OK more context: Midsomer Murders is a British crime drama television series, where in the mentioned episode above, a murder was commited on rare orchid collector to steal a "yellow roth". the picture I shared is the flower they used in that episode. I don't recall any other television series that used Paphiopedilums, thats why the post got a bit off topic. Apologies for that.

 

[Guldal]

link to that mentioned Roth aureum

OMG....it's even worse than I remembered!

Apart from Orchis Horribilis, though, the episode is quite entertaining: the scorned wife of one of the orchioholics letting loose all Hell's fury by destroying his entire and very valuable collection by spraying it with a VERY potent weed-killer; another collector admiring his loot (I.e. Orchis Horribilis fma. aureum), while relaxing in an old fashioned sun lounger in his conservatory, suddenly being mortally wounded by being pierced from behind with a large garden fork; and other like fun and entertaining details.

 

[Guldal]

... the picture I shared is the flower [a "yellow roth"] they used in that episode. I don't recall any other television series that used Paphiopedilums, thats why the post got a bit off topic. Apologies for that.

I, too, apologize for digressing, but can't really feel too guilty about it, as it actually all was Tony's fault:

.... in a few more generations I'm sure we'll have an alba roths lol

 

[Guldal]

Joking aside, 'Roth' might have been the lucky one to have caught the glimpse of a unicorn twice.... but why wasn't the sanderianum aureum and the albino form of praestans brought to a botanist for proper description, as they, if the genuine article, would certainly constitute a botanical sensation?

I can't imagine any motive of a noble kind behind such action, whether it be doubt about the plants actual status (and hence a potential loss of market value) or just greed in another form by possesing a rare and potentially invaluable commodity to be bred on or sold for an enormous profit.

 

[dodidoki]

OMG....it's even worse than I remembered!

Apart from Orchis Horribilis, though, the episode is quite entertaining: the scorned wife of one of the orchioholics letting loose all Hell's fury by destroying his entire and very valuable collection by spraying it with a VERY potent weed-killer; another collector admiring his loot (I.e. Orchis Horribilis fma. aureum), while relaxing in an old fashioned sun lounger in his conservatory, suddenly being mortally wounded by being pierced from behind with a large garden fork; and other like fun and entertaining details.

OK more context: Midsomer Murders is a British crime drama television series, where in the mentioned episode above, a murder was commited on rare orchid collector to steal a "yellow roth". the picture I shared is the flower they used in that episode. I don't recall any other television series that used Paphiopedilums, thats why the post got a bit off topic. Apologies for that.

Thank you, now I understand.

 

[DirGo]

Hi Theodore, here is my 'fred flintstone' reply on 'producing albinos', I am no botanist or geneticist but I hope I can explain some basics.

ALBINO SPECIES
Albino forms are occuring spontanious. Very rarely offspring has defective genes. When this defect happens on the genes responsible for producing the red pigment, the plant cannot produce red pigment and becomes an ALBINO. Depending on the full color form, the loss of red can result in flower being yellow, green, white or combinations. Only the full white flowers are entitled to be called ALBUM forms (and never alba in our genus Paphiopedilum, but that is another story).
This happening is always very rare: maybe 1 in 10.000 or 1 in 50.000 or maybe even less. Even then that plant could have also other genes defects and as result will be much weaker than it's full color siblings. Even when it does matures and flowers, the next problem is that maybe pollinators don't recognize the flower anymore and it cannot reproduce in nature. Most known albinos were found in wild collected plants, but I know of albinos occuring in lab propagated offspring. Once you have an albino species and you can self it, your offspring will be albino. Sometimes a weak growing albino that is too weak to be selfed, gets crossed with better growing full color. Their offspring COULD get the albino genes from one parent and the better growing genes from the other parent. But this offspring will also have full color offspring. In summary, Finding a new albino form of a species will remain a very rare occurance.

ALBINO HYBRIDS
Once an albino exists of one of the parents, crossing them can have a theoretical up to 50% chance that the offspring is getting the defective genes and will be albino as well. Producing an albino hybrid when you have albino of one or both parents is a matter of time and a few generations (and a LOT of patience).

DISCLAIMER
As stated, this is a very simplified summary, not covering all exceptions and all rules. For example there are multiple steps in producing red pigment that could each be working or defective. There are more than 80 different red pigments present in flowers and sometimes not all are defective, so minimal red pigment remains (like very faint red in fairrieanum flag or red villi on villosum petals or red warts on venustum petals). Also there no guarantuee that when you cross two albinos with each other that the offspring is albino. When they were each defective in another step to produce the red pigment, they could "fix" each other and offspring will be full color.
I hope my short reply brings a bit of light in the darkness and encourage you to deep dive much further into the matter.

 

[Roth]

Joking aside, 'Roth' might have been the lucky one to have caught the glimpse of a unicorn twice.... but why wasn't the sanderianum aureum and the albino form of praestans brought to a botanist for proper description, as they, if the genuine article, would certainly constitute a botanical sensation?

I can't imagine any motive of a noble kind behind such action, whether it be doubt about the plants actual status (and hence a potential loss of market value) or just greed in another form by possesing a rare and potentially invaluable commodity to be bred on or sold for an enormous profit.

I saw more things that have never been described than you could imagine for sure, including the first gigantifolium that was ever seen in flower ( and described).

Some things like the giant form of adductum, with up to 9 flowers per spike and the plants nearly the size of a kolopakingii bloomed a few times out of entire wild collected batches in Asia, they were never described or mentioned. There were some photos on internet of a few plants here and there though.

Description by 'botanists' would not add any value to the plant, especially because those plants end up in very rich hobbyist collection ( many times, dead afterwards), that value the uniqueness of the said plant.

Some botanists as well are very far from being pristine clean and honorable, but I won't comment further on the subject. If any of them argue, just say it, and I can make a nice email dump here

Just as I found it back... The alba form of victoria-mariae 'Suwada', it was a photo online about 15 years ago on their website. Never described nor mentioned anywhere. One of many examples of varieties never described by any botanist. Never propagated, and from what I know, no need to try to find it or any 'progeny' out of it. If offered ( as I post it here, I am sure some traders will have 'seedlings' in their backyard...), it is a certain scam.

 

[Guldal]

If there was a vote for the unicorn to end all unicorns, that albino form of victoria-marine would certainly be at or be near the top of my list!

I might have expressed myself clumsily, but I'm not of the persuasion, that if it hasn't been described, it doesn't exist. And I'm neither naive when it comes to to the saintlyhood of botanists - what I tried to convey was the regret of such rare flowers/plants, escaping proper, botanical description and thus leaving our common field of knowledge somewhat depleted!