Sam's Jan Flask List

[ehanes7612]

New Flask List on Website

I am not all that excited about it, myself...kinda disappointed the direction of crossing sandy and multi hybrids with roths....from what I have seen these tend to turn out small or/and great deal loss of petal length..on large plants..but if anyone can show me otherwise would like to see pics of examples

 

[ehanes7612]

maybe the Mem Joan Levy x sandy

 

[Justin]

There are some nice roths species...but i need another roth flask like a hole in my head!

 

[ehanes7612]

There are some nice roths species...but i need another roth flask like a hole in my head!

me too

 

[Tom Reddick]

The Yang-ji Diamond x roth is the cross I am most excited about. That could be incredible. I really want to keep up to date with anything that is getting adductum v. anitum mixed into the gene pool.

The new adductum sib cross looks quite promising as well. For whatever reason, and this is purely anecdotal on my part, I generally find that sibling crosses seem to grow better than selfings. And those are some solid parents. Hoping these are a bit easier to manage than the 2 selfings have been.

Tigrinum- fingers crossed. That is the only species where my history is a complete failure (just 1 attempt almost 10 years ago with 2 flasks that died off within 48 hours.) Hope it goes better this time, and I will do a special Chronicle on it.

 

[ehanes7612]

I don’t see the Yang Jindiamond x Roth as any better better than Hsinying Anita x roth and so far what I have seen a failure.. but who knows

 

[Tom Reddick]

I do not have the recent in-depth experience looking through the progeny of these crosses to give you an answer that is worthy of this forum.

All I can say is that I like having PEOY in the chain far more than Lady Isabel. There is that occasional hybrid that really and truly is groundbreaking- and in my 35 years of orchid growing I have seen a few. Phal. Orchid World is one example. Ctna. Why Not would be another. When it comes to the Coryopedilums- I think Prince Edward of York is that hybrid. Saint Swithin a close second.

That said- such hybrids do not necessarily make the best parents. So, the greatness of the plant says little about its potential for breeding.

To answer your broader question, and here I can give an educated answer, I think a great many- perhaps most- Coryopedilum hybrids have a very high rate of below average flowers and a very low rate of quality flowers- to extremes beyond what one might expect from other breeding lines. This is especially true when sanderianum or stonei is heavily involved.

I do not necessarily think that Coryopedilums have a lower potential in hybridization- but rather I attribute it to time. Roth and sanderianum really only became available to collectors a few decades ago. It is only in the last 10 years that roth has really begun to show its vast potential with an incredibly in-depth degree of sibling hybridization. Sanderianum has so far proven able to give petal length, but offers little else. And what of the less showy cousins? Platyphyllum has many great characteristics it could impart in breeding- but that potential is untapped as of yet.

At the end of the day, it could well prove that Coryopedilums are not generally going to be capable of yielding great results in complex hybrids. The track record so far is certainly not suggestive of that- at least to me. Yes there are a number of fine hybrids and some stunning individual specimens- but at the same time I think you also have to look at where the money is going. And when you look at the flask lists of any major grower of these plants, there is still an enormous emphasis on species relative to hybrids- and the species being used in the hybrids are still small in number.

In any event- I do not have many Coryopedilum hybrids on hand for the reason you are not excited about aspects of the new OI list. I see them still as speculative crosses. What I like about that cross I mentioned though is the presence of PEOY and anitum (for color) going back with roth. Time will tell, but that one was worth the price IMHO- or at least a better bet than much of what is out there.

 

[ehanes7612]

I have no doubt about anitum or adductum as a parent.. so many great examples of those two showing great promise.. but I have found that when you start going into the complex range.. flowers become mediocre or copies of some primaries ..I have seen this with sanderianum crosses back unto sanderianum as well as some back crosses that have philippinense in their lineage. Primary crosses and some select near primaries still more often than not are superior in inflorescence in my opinion... but hell, next week I may end up getting that Yang Ji Diamond x Roth cross

 

[ehanes7612]

Dammit...looks like I just ordered Yang Ji Diamond x roth

On a different note..I cant seem to draw any interest in my JB x roth and Hsinying anita x roth BS plants on ebay...even one that is in bud...makes me think that these particular crosses are a bust with the general paph population

 

[ehanes7612]

guess he sold out of them but he has some in the lab for feb

 

[emydura]

I have no doubt about anitum or adductum as a parent.. so many great examples of those two showing great promise.. but I have found that when you start going into the complex range.. flowers become mediocre or copies of some primaries ..I have seen this with sanderianum crosses back unto sanderianum as well as some back crosses that have philippinense in their lineage. Primary crosses and some select near primaries still more often than not are superior in inflorescence s

This is not unique to multi-florals. For standard complex Paphs, you may have to flower hundreds to get a really good one. It is true that you will get a much higher proportion of keepers with primary hybrids, but then the outcomes are so predictable and uniform, that you are unlikely to get anything exciting and unique. The best of the complex multi's will be incredible, but you would have to flower a lot of rubbish to obtain these. Welcome to the world of complex hybrids. Given the time and space you would need to flower a lot of multi's, it is probably easiest to let people like Sam flower them and buy his select divisions.

 

[Ozpaph]

The Randy Booths, anything with anitum and remakes of SS and LI should all be excellent. That's what I bought......

 

[ehanes7612]

remakes seem to be making a comeback, for sure..I bought the RB last time..they are growing really well

 

[Tom Reddick]

This is not unique to multi-florals. For standard complex Paphs, you may have to flower hundreds to get a really good one. It is true that you will get a much higher proportion of keepers with primary hybrids, but then the outcomes are so predictable and uniform, that you are unlikely to get anything exciting and unique. The best of the complex multi's will be incredible, but you would have to flower a lot of rubbish to obtain these. Welcome to the world of complex hybrids. Given the time and space you would need to flower a lot of multi's, it is probably easiest to let people like Sam flower them and buy his select divisions.

Good comparison, great answer. Only caveat I would offer is that for anyone looking to potentially hybridize and be on the cutting edge, it is better to grow your own. Still- that means buying several flasks, I would say at least 3-4, and planning to grow them all out.

 

[Tom Reddick]

On a different note..I cant seem to draw any interest in my JB x roth and Hsinying anita x roth BS plants on ebay...even one that is in bud...makes me think that these particular crosses are a bust with the general paph population

FWIW- I started actively selling on eBay in 1998, all kinds of stuff. Over the years my activity has dwindled as the site got filled with junk and people started bidding on things as though that is what they were going to get.

Until recently, the really hard core hobby areas (notably paperweights for me) were good places to sell, but I have even stopped that. A couple of months ago, I listed several paperweights at very good prices and got nothing. Ended up selling them to a broker for what my lowest BIN accept price would have been.

It could just be a phase too- there is certainly plenty of general worry in this country right now that is affecting everyone's spending on non-necessities, but even so, I would not take a lack of interest in your plants on eBay to be attributable to the plants as much as I would the site itself.

One reason I think it may NOT be a phase is the fact a lot of serious hobbyists are now using forums such as this to sell plants or other collectibles. I would certainly come here before eBay to sell anything these days.

 

[ehanes7612]

Yeah , it seems that people are steering away from bidding wars.. and I see more buy it now .. I won’t do auctions anymore ... having better success selling

I am also trying Orchid mall again

 

[emydura]

Good comparison, great answer. Only caveat I would offer is that for anyone looking to potentially hybridize and be on the cutting edge, it is better to grow your own. Still- that means buying several flasks, I would say at least 3-4, and planning to grow them all out.

Not a lot of us hobby growers have that much space.

Here is an example of a complex hybrid involving three multi-floral species - rothschildianum, sanderianum and phillipinense (Paph Kemp Tower). It is one of the finest multi-floral hybrids I have seen. It seems to have taken the best attributes of all three species - long petals from sanderianum, yellow colour and flower count from phillipinense and great shape and broad segments from rothschildianum. From a breeding perspective, I think they have achieved the holy grail. You could not produce such a flower from a primary hybrid.


http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44686


Don't expect to flower many Kemp Towers like this though. If you google this hybrid you will see lots of pretty ordinary flowers. Here is a clone that actually received an AM award. I'm not sure how as it looks like a dog of a flower to me. If this is award quality, I'd hate to see the average clones.

http://www.aospacificsouth.org/Awards/2011-11-26 OSSB Show/Judging Results 2011-11-26 OSSB Show.html


I think you may need to flower more sanderianum complex hybrid seedlings to obtain a good clone than other breeding. Other than the long petals, the flowers on sanderianum are quite hideous. Certainly not great for breeding. A lot of these negative attributes may flow through to a high proportion of seedlings.

If you want a predictable outcome and a high chance of obtaining a quality flower, then grow primary hybrids. I read a transcript from a Sam Tsui presentation where he recommended hobby growers stick to primary hybrids rather than complex multi's for this reason. But if you want something unique then you will have to grow more complex hybrids. You might need to flower a lot of seedlings though.

 

[ehanes7612]

well, Kemp Tower is a Sanderianum hybrid crossed unto a different species...not a sanderianum or multifloral backcrossed unto a previous parent. My point had more to do with backcrosses, a roth hybrid back unto a roth , a sandy hybrid back unto a sandy, etc. I am just not seeing more unique crosses with backcross complexes. I see more flowers that look like other complexes or even poor primaries/near primaries. It's really not worth the effort of growing the hundreds of progeny required to get that one special plant. If one has limited space..I would advise to buy flasks of the alba trend in multi's and remakes of primaries with the much better quality species that have developed over the past decade. Backcrosses are a bust for most people IMHO.

 

[Tom Reddick]

Not a lot of us hobby growers have that much space.

I think you may need to flower more sanderianum complex hybrid seedlings to obtain a good clone than other breeding. Other than the long petals, the flowers on sanderianum are quite hideous. Certainly not great for breeding. A lot of these negative attributes may flow through to a high proportion of seedlings.

Oh no worries- I fall in the hobby category too. Yes, once all my Chronicles plants get older, I will be hitting a show or two perhaps as a vendor, but I grow in the home in a dedicated room- and that is why I very rarely buy these complex crosses.

On sanderianum, totally agree with you- and reading your comment got me a little nostalgic.

Back in the late 80s and early 90s, the standard price for roth seedlings was $10 per inch of leaf span. That is what pretty much everyone charged at the time.

And then someone finally got sanderianum to produce seed (or so they thought- later turned out to be PEOY and a very unfortunate mistake.) When those seedlings came to market, they were $75 per inch- though if memory serves that later came down to $50 per inch.

Everyone was all caught up in the fact that sanderianum could have 3 foot petals. Little attention was being paid to the fact that in all other respects it is not exactly a show-stopping flower, although a handful of select clones are quite striking when displayed properly.

Fast forward to just over 20 years ago, and sanderianum finally started becoming reliably available in flask- and for more than rothschildianum where the selective breeding really started to pay off.

And then the last decade leading to today- a really good roth sib cross is double or more the price of a top sanderianum sib cross. Because people now know- and also because sanderianum did not prove to be the breeder everyone had hoped. Happily, the highly dominant species like roth do good things with sanderianum- but even so, it is no magic parent.

Anyhow- sorry for rambling, but I have long thought this an amusing reality. Almost as funny as how now Paph. thaianum as its own species is a hot item, but no one cared back when it was thought to be an inferior and hard to grow variety of niveum.