Phrag Albopurpureum 'Sir Arthur'

[Gilda]

Like Marilyn stated , this is a lot like Schroderae . My Albo. is darker than Schrod. and the petals don't twist . I jumped the gun and took this pic before the dorsal was finished opening.

 

[NYEric]

Wow. that's an old cross, registered in 1877!

 

[SlipperFan]

Amazing how different these can be:
Phrag. Albopurpureaum

 

[NYEric]

Dot, as I said B4, your's looks very diff.

 

[Wendy]

Your flower is beautiful.

I think Dot's and mine (which came from the same place) are actually Calurum. They both look the same and totally different from yours.

 

[Gilda]

Amazing how different these can be:
Phrag. Albopurpureaum

The difference between your X and the awarded 'Sir Arthur'

The description of phrag Albopurpureum 'Sir Arthur' in Wildcatt is as follows:
Two flowers & one bud irridecent pink in color- darker pink pouch ,petals curving around pouch to form a frame extending down 65 cm.
This pretty much describes mine.

 

[SlipperFan]

Wendy, mine came from John at Zephyrus. He had a photo of the flower with the plant when I saw it, which is why I purchased it. It's obvious to me that John thinks this is labeled correctly.

It would be nice to know for sure what it is. From the photos I've seen of Calurum, I don't think it's that -- mine is too pale compared to those. But I agree that it doesn't look like the other photos posted of Albopurpureum. However, I think I should keep the label as such until it is shown to be another name.

Meanwhile, Gilda, yours is very, very pretty.

 

[Wendy]

Agreed...I have both labels in mine and won't use it for breeding as I will never know for sure. It's a keeper whatever it is. Mine is also very pale...almost white. It's in bloom right now with three inflorescence; a very vigorous plant.

 

[SlipperKing]

OK Ladies,
Let me throw a wench-in-the-works just to give you all something to think about and discuss.

Here is a comparison of 2 of my plants both Albopurureum
The first one:

Now the second:

Here are the two together:

And a close up of the leaves to compare sizes:

Both are Albopurpreums, neither one has a clonal name. So, are they or are they not the same cross???

 

[Roy]

Rick, I just did an RHS check on the parentage of Schroderae and Albopurpurem. Both crosses should look similar to each other as per the Albopurpureum shown by Gilda, the petal twisting would be the only minor difference. Your second pic looks similar to but more open than the pic on Phragweb ( which isn't operating, for me anyway ) of Phrag Saundersianum = caudatum x schlimii. I have a Saundersianum but it hasn't flowered yet, the description given to me by the sellers is as for your second pic, plant size included, compact size to small. Different clones different flower shape.

 

[NYEric]

OK Ladies,
Let me throw a wench-in-the-works ?

Wench in the works. I think you're going to pay for that. oke:
Dot, I'm sure your's is Calurum v. Candidulum.

 

[Leo Schordje]

In the Olden Days, mid 1960's and very early 1970's when several large batches of old even then Phrag hybrids were brought in from England by Jones and Scully. They broguht in several hundreds of plants in one shipment from a firm going out of business. Most of them came in with no lablels, names were put on after the fact from lists of probable suspects. There is a better than 50% chance that these plants are not really what their labels say. And the errors were made more than 30 years ago. It is an excersize in frustration trying to sort them out. If it is an old Phrag hybrid the name on the tag is Apocryphal at best. You can make a guess as to what the parents might be, but I would not assume to know anything about what it is from the tags. There are clones that obviously are Schroderae some are obvious as Calurum (synonymn Ainsworthii). If it isn't obviously one or another, I would hazzard it could very well be something else completely unrelated. There are a lot of old crosses that could be suspects.

Post 1970's remakes from the species with some provenance - those are the only names I would more or less trust.

Leo

 

[John M]

I noticed that Wendy's plant seemed to be mislabelled the first time that she bloomed it. Finally, on February 5, 2008 (after Wendy shared a bit with me), I wrote to John Doherty to ask about the provinence of this plant. Here is the exchange:

"Hi John,

I've got a question for you. This has been bothering me for a couple years now and I'd like your opinion.

A few years ago, a friend of Wendy Hoffman bought a Phrag. Albopurpureum from you at the London show....as a gift for Wendy.

As I'm sure that you know, Albopurpureum is Dominianum x schlimii; so, I would expect a very "Schroederae" looking flower with good colour, on a fairly compact plant. Dominianum is like a pint-sized Grande; but, better looking and with better colour, in my opinion. Of course, schlimii is a small plant also. So, Albopurpureum is also on the compact side.

However, the Albopurpureum's that you had (have?), are huge plants when well grown. Plus, the flowers don't look at all like other Albopurpureums; not resembling Schroederae at all. They look just like Calurum, which is Sedenii x longifolium. Calurum does get to huge proportions (because of the heavy longifolium influence), when well grown. Plus, Calurum is also known as Ainsworthii, which is also Sedenii x longifolium (v. roezlii).

My question to you is this: Is it possible that at some point in your plant's past, the label was originally "Ainsworthii"; but, was rewritten mistakingly as "Albopurpureum"? It wouldn't be the first time that somebody made such a mistake.....writing the wrong name down from memory.

Thanks for your time.

Best Regards,

John Marcotte"
**********************************************************

John Doherty's reply:

"Hi John – anything’s possible! It’s an old old cross, so the odds of a transcriptional error are high. I haven’t seen enough of either to say for sure….."

 

[John M]

In my opinion, Gilda's plant is labelled correctly, while Wendy's plant and Rick's tall one, are not. They are probably Calurum; but, figuring out exactly what a plant is, is very difficult. Figuring out what a plant is not, is much easier! These plants that are big, tall and have flowers without Schroderae-like, long petals are not Albopurpureum. There is just no way that a long, ribbon-petaled plant like Dominiamum is a direct parent of these stocky, short petaled ones.

 

[Grandma M]

Wow. That is a 'wench-in-the-works'.

Leo, are you saying that mine could be Schroderae. I am tempted to bellieve that is what it is. I also have Schoderae 'Monroe' and 'Clyde'. There is a very distint similarity to both of these. I sure wish I knew for sure what I have. My 'Sir Arthur' plants were bought from two different dealers in different years, but they both look alike. The $64.00 question, what are they?

Marilyn

 

[NYEric]

Another reason to say, Yay besseae hybrids!

 

[Leo Schordje]

Marilyn,
I don't know which photo you are refering to when you say "'mine could be Schroderae?" - but basically I am saying if it looks like Schroderae, it probably is Schroderae, never mind what the tags say.

I know it sounds a bit flip, but these old hybrids have been through so much history, not all of it kind to them. WW2 really disrupted all the old European collections.

So if you have 3 of these pre WW2 hybrid plants that side by side, and they look alike, and they have 3 different names on the tags - pick the best name and put it on all 3, they may very well be divisions of the same clone.

Leo

 

[SlipperFan]

This is all very interesting. Wendy, see what you started?:evil:

Rick, your first one looks almost identical to mine.

Dot, I'm sure your's is Calurum v. Candidulum.

Tell me more. I've never heard of this one -- do you have any photos? Google didn't give me any.

 

[Gilda]

This has been a very interesting discussion..here are the 2 side by side for comparison. The Albo. 'Sir Arthur' is on the left..much bigger plant, although the Schrod. is no compact grower !! The coloring is much deeper in the Albo. I took these without a flash to try and keep the colors as true as possible. I will keep mine labeled as they are.
2 side by side

Albopurpureum 'Sir Arthur'

Schroderae

 

[Wendy]

I'm having a great time reading this thread. Discussions like this are wonderful. Thanks everyone.