Paphiopedilum rothschildianum x sib (Miles x Giant Wings GM/WOC

[Roth]

I doubt that is from Tonkin's leftovers if that is what you are implying here...Tonkins closed their operation back in the early 2000s.(?) After Jack passed, Val tried to keep the operation going for a little while...but in the end, she had to liquidate the business....good for her!
I was at her greenhouse in the summer of 2001 and picked up a "Borneo" X selfing, which I will treasure for sure. Ah, the good old days!

Not only implying.... The stocks were sold over a couple of years, from the 90s until the 2000s. All kind of sizes of rothschildianum, including big clumps, and even seedling sized not yet bloomed from their original Charles E x Borneo, etc...

Out of these, some were divided, some were more than likely sent to grow in Hawaii, etc... But zero ever reappeared under their original pedigree or anything related to Charles E or Borneo. Guess why? Because 99% of the hobbyists would not pay for roth with these parents... or much less than the new generation pedigree...

 

[Theodoreorchidking]

Not only implying.... The stocks were sold over a couple of years, from the 90s until the 2000s. All kind of sizes of rothschildianum, including big clumps, and even seedling sized not yet bloomed from their original Charles E x Borneo, etc...

Out of these, some were divided, some were more than likely sent to grow in Hawaii, etc... But zero ever reappeared under their original pedigree or anything related to Charles E or Borneo. Guess why? Because 99% of the hobbyists would not pay for roth with these parents... or much less than the new generation pedigree...

So my single growth plant has gone more than 24 years not blooming? Maybe but I think not. Also if it was under Sam's supervision don't you think it would have bloomed earlier as he has been growing them for decades and I have had the plant for about a year. I really don't have the best conditions for my plants and grow with tap water: this week I switched to ro though. Also this is no attack on you or a defense but rather a comment that could be used to support the chat.

 

[Theodoreorchidking]

Congrats on blooming a roth, it's always a pleasure to see one in flower!

Since there's already an interesting discussion going on here, I figured I would throw in my 2 cents on something that's been mulling around in my mind. I'm interested to hear what people think about it. Mainly, when did we start conflating "wild" and "old-school" roths with "poorer flower quality by judging standards". That is to say 'Rex' and 'Mont Millais' are wild collected specimens, and they have incredible color and broad segments. To illustrate, here is a recent photo from TON of one of their flowerings of 'Mont Millais':View attachment 45102

The form, balance, color, and presentation of Mont Millais are still exceptional, even when compared with more recent line-bred roths, in my opinion. Even "old style" roths can have broad segments and bold striping. Here is a picture from the June 1936 issue of Orchids Magazine, featuring a roth (almost certainly wild-collected) bloomed by the orchid firm of Lager & Hurrell (Summit, New Jersey), that won first prize at the International Flower Show in New York:

View attachment 45103

To me, this "older style" (1936) "wild" roth is an almost dead-ringer to some of the roths that came out of the early generation of Orchid Zone crosses, and it's still of above-average quality by today's standard. Just to be clear, I'm not trying to put anyone down, and I'm so glad there are growers who appreciate and preserve different styles and breeding lines of rothschildianum. But I have just been thinking that the terms "wild type" and "old school" have morphed somewhat into euphemisms for roths that don't meet current breeding standards (which are entirely artificial). Perhaps this is a result of the Charles E x Borneo cross, which was one of the earliest commercially successful crosses, and tended to give progeny plants that don't meet today's judging standard. I guess my point is that "wild-type" and "old-school" roths can still be big, bold and beautiful, and that we're still in the relatively early days of line-breeding for this species. Even the latest, cutting-edge Paph Paradise crosses retain the fundamental aesthetics of wild plants, even ones photographed back in the 1930s!

This is a great comment . I just love when people put photos of award winning plants like you did. Imagine looking at a magazine full of orchids in black and white: would be super annoying but kind of exciting to see it in person after the magazine, builds on the sespence. Also is Mont Millais ever for sale because that solid colored pouch is to die for!!!

 

[Roth]

So my single growth plant has gone more than 24 years not blooming? Maybe but I think not. Also if it was under Sam's supervision don't you think it would have bloomed earlier as he has been growing them for decades and I have had the plant for about a year. I really don't have the best conditions for my plants and grow with tap water: this week I switched to ro though. Also this is no attack on you or a defense but rather a comment that could be used to support the chat.

They did, for even more than that. And they were divided as well into single growths many times. Shin-Yi with a fusarium took me over a decade to grow back to blooming size and as an healthy plant, though it is a sanderianum...

Indeed that seems weird, but in the 2000s the Tonkin still had unbloomed 20-30cm leafspan of the original Charles E x Borneo.... Different growing conditions can bring vastly different growth speed.. The second problem is that some of those 'seedlings' bloom so close to the Charles E x Borneo that it would be surprising that anyone had redone the cross 10 years ago... Last problem, where are the thousands of Charles E x Borneo and alike from Tonkin and Orchids of Los Osos... and despite a low flower quality except 2-3, they were quite robust and disease free in general.

 

[Roth]

This is a great comment . I just love when people put photos of award winning plants like you did. Imagine looking at a magazine full of orchids in black and white: would be super annoying but kind of exciting to see it in person after the magazine, builds on the sespence. Also is Mont Millais ever for sale because that solid colored pouch is to die for!!!

Yes, and there are more. Commander, Dou Fong, the 'Macrura XXXX' series Macrura Nion, Macrura Hirako, etc... were all wild collected. Furayama were all wild collected, etc, etc... There are paintings of some amazing roths as well from the XIXth century, and I have seen over the years in Sabah at Poring and Tenom a bunch of FCC standard rothschildianum straight out of the jungle.

That's different colonies and groups, that's why a Charles E x Borneo can never give a Mt Millais type progeny, the opposite being true too. For humans it is the same in fact, 2 ethnic Swedish cannot genetically have a 100% Chinese or African child, that's just simple genetics of populations.

Mt Millais is sometimes on sale, but they are in the 4 to 5 figures, and there are some that are not true to name as well. Actually quite a few. Ironically, Mt Millais is the roth that had the most stable value over the decades, and still a proven breeder today.

 

[Theodoreorchidking]

They did, for even more than that. And they were divided as well into single growths many times. Shin-Yi with a fusarium took me over a decade to grow back to blooming size and as an healthy plant, though it is a sanderianum...

Indeed that seems weird, but in the 2000s the Tonkin still had unbloomed 20-30cm leafspan of the original Charles E x Borneo.... Different growing conditions can bring vastly different growth speed.. The second problem is that some of those 'seedlings' bloom so close to the Charles E x Borneo that it would be surprising that anyone had redone the cross 10 years ago... Last problem, where are the thousands of Charles E x Borneo and alike from Tonkin and Orchids of Los Osos... and despite a low flower quality except 2-3, they were quite robust and disease free in general.

Maybe you are right. Maybe I'm right. However a roth is a roth, well except some of the photos shared on this thread , totally a joke and no disrespect. Also a great discussion took place, which made everything worth it. At the end of the day, I don't have enough rothschildianum to throw out because I don't like them, so I am keeping the runt of the species. It will be a cool experiment though to rebloom it two more times to see if it gets any better. Finally, put the good old question "does a roth flower get better with age"?

 

[spujr]

Shin-Yi with a fusarium took me over a decade to grow back to blooming size and as an healthy plant, though it is a sanderianum

I'd love to get a division of this, though I know it would be very expensive compared to a faster growing Mt Milllais. Anyone else besides you have one?

 

[Theodoreorchidking]

I'd love to get a division of this, though I know it would be very expensive compared to a faster growing Mt Milllais. Anyone else besides you have one?

Ya I have one. Totally real and comes with the Theo certificate of authenticity!!! Totally not fake and is for sale for the low low price of $100,000. Photo below, isn't she a beut

 

[Theodoreorchidking]

I'd love to get a division of this, though I know it would be very expensive compared to a faster growing Mt Milllais. Anyone else besides you have one?

The roth is pleading that you buy it . Thought it kinda looks like it is praying

 

[Roth]

I'd love to get a division of this, though I know it would be very expensive compared to a faster growing Mt Milllais. Anyone else besides you have one?

I dont think so so far. It was divided and sold not long after it was awarded.... as well because the clump started to collapse not long after. The divisions back then were already very expensive.

There might be another one out there, but I would not bet on it. Mine bloomed 2 years ago, on the rescue growth, and now the new growth is very strong and much bigger, should bloom this spring, but it is far from being a clump yet....

 

[Roth]

For fun, the wild collected Furayama roths :

Rothschildianum Furayama #19

https://www.orchid.or.jp/orchid/people/tanaka/Dome04/DomePaph/5774.JPG
Rothschildianum Furayama #18

http://www.orchidweb.jp/orchidshow/jgp2004/IMG_5094.jpg

 

[BrucherT]

Congrats on blooming a roth, it's always a pleasure to see one in flower!

Since there's already an interesting discussion going on here, I figured I would throw in my 2 cents on something that's been mulling around in my mind. I'm interested to hear what people think about it. Mainly, when did we start conflating "wild" and "old-school" roths with "poorer flower quality by judging standards". That is to say 'Rex' and 'Mont Millais' are wild collected specimens, and they have incredible color and broad segments. To illustrate, here is a recent photo from TON of one of their flowerings of 'Mont Millais':View attachment 45102

The form, balance, color, and presentation of Mont Millais are still exceptional, even when compared with more recent line-bred roths, in my opinion. Even "old style" roths can have broad segments and bold striping. Here is a picture from the June 1936 issue of Orchids Magazine, featuring a roth (almost certainly wild-collected) bloomed by the orchid firm of Lager & Hurrell (Summit, New Jersey), that won first prize at the International Flower Show in New York:

View attachment 45103

To me, this "older style" (1936) "wild" roth is an almost dead-ringer to some of the roths that came out of the early generation of Orchid Zone crosses, and it's still of above-average quality by today's standard. Just to be clear, I'm not trying to put anyone down, and I'm so glad there are growers who appreciate and preserve different styles and breeding lines of rothschildianum. But I have just been thinking that the terms "wild type" and "old school" have morphed somewhat into euphemisms for roths that don't meet current breeding standards (which are entirely artificial). Perhaps this is a result of the Charles E x Borneo cross, which was one of the earliest commercially successful crosses, and tended to give progeny plants that don't meet today's judging standard. I guess my point is that "wild-type" and "old-school" roths can still be big, bold and beautiful, and that we're still in the relatively early days of line-breeding for this species. Even the latest, cutting-edge Paph Paradise crosses retain the fundamental aesthetics of wild plants, even ones photographed back in the 1930s!

Here’s hoping they always do, and that lots of growers maintain the original stock so that they always can.

 

[hkunberger]

Theo, I think your roth is lovely. There is just something magical about a blooming roth, regardless of whether it is cutting edge or not. If the parents turn out not be what is on the tag or aren’t of such great quality, perhaps you should be giving yourself an extra pat on the back for blooming it at all.

 

[tnyr5]

Maybe you are right. Maybe I'm right. However a roth is a roth, well except some of the photos shared on this thread , totally a joke and no disrespect. Also a great discussion took place, which made everything worth it. At the end of the day, I don't have enough rothschildianum to throw out because I don't like them, so I am keeping the runt of the species. It will be a cool experiment though to rebloom it two more times to see if it gets any better. Finally, put the good old question "does a roth flower get better with age"?

Oh it will get better with age and as you improve your care. Bigger flowers, wider segments, possibly even darker color & less dorsal recurvature depending upon your conditions when you bloom it. What we're saying is that it will only, can only be an improved version of what it already is; it's never going to look like the awarded roths. That doesn't necessarily matter if you just want a roth, especially if it's an easy grower. If, however, you want one that "looks like the amazing pics of them on the internet," you're going to have to buy another one.
My personal advice is use this one to learn how to REALLY grow a roth well, then buy a selected one in bloom when you have the money.

 

[Tom-DE]

What insane Tony just said!
Another thing, buying a seedling(even with famous parents), it is like buying a Lottery ticket, not everyone can get lucky....
and, some stories/info may sound credible or hard to believe for some...all should take it with a grain of salt.

 

[Roth]

Well, to buy a roth in bloom to have a very high quality one is not mandatory...

If the sellers are honest, and use really the proper parents, there is little surprise. It is not a lottery as much as some want use to believe, at least for the species.

I have yet to see a 'bad' rothschildianum out of the ones that bloomed and were done honestly with the proper parents. Recurved dorsal, narrow petals... just no. If I take the Paph Paradise batch as an example, there were no 'bad' ones in any of them. Not a single one. Some not awardable, for sure. Some awardable, sure too. But nothing 'bad' with really poor flowers as 99% of some of the grexes from certain sellers turn out.

My main income is not selling paphs species, as I always pointed out. I do sell, I grow them, but if I don't sell, I am not going to die. On the other side, that's why I can speak openly, both about my experience, that few can compare with, and about what's wrong. Otherwise, I would go to Taiwan, buy roths at 5-10US, and stuff 'Mt Millais x self' in them. Sure then I would do a lot of money, and easily.

 

[Royal Rea]

For fun, the wild collected Furayama roths :

Rothschildianum Furayama #19

https://www.orchid.or.jp/orchid/people/tanaka/Dome04/DomePaph/5774.JPG
Rothschildianum Furayama #18

http://www.orchidweb.jp/orchidshow/jgp2004/IMG_5094.jpg

It is good to see some other wild-collected roths maybe in the mix. From what I have seen, shown here and available commericallty, the majority of roth line breeding to date has used the wild collected plants; Charles E, Borneo, Rex, Mt Mlllias, and Commander, with selfings of these 5 in the mix. With a smaller number from other wild-collected clones such as Bion, Macrura XXX, New Bear, and Dou Fang and other ect. So the gene pool appears quite small, I assume originally it was availability?
Don't get me wrong , when you have great parents use them, Rex x Mt Millias, and then Val x Mt Millias ect

 

[Roth]

It is good to see some other wild-collected roths maybe in the mix. From what I have seen, shown here and available commericallty, the majority of roth line breeding to date has used the wild collected plants; Charles E, Borneo, Rex, Mt Mlllias, and Commander, with selfings of these 5 in the mix. With a smaller number from other wild-collected clones such as Bion, Macrura XXX, New Bear, and Dou Fang and other ect. So the gene pool appears quite small, I assume originally it was availability?
Don't get me wrong , when you have great parents use them, Rex x Mt Millias, and then Val x Mt Millias ect

You are correct, most of the roth have only 4 wild collected plants in their parentage as of now... with Charles E, Borneo, Rex, Mt Millais. A fifth one, Nan Chou was as well in the Orchid Zone lineage. Sixth if you count the Mt Kinabalu.

'Commander' was used in the UK, and aside from Blackbird ( used now by the TON...), there is not much that survived of its progeny today, maybe 1-2 here and there.

The Bear line was independent completely, Dou Fong was in Taiwan, and used maybe once or twice max. Sunlight had 3-4 wild roths they used too. But the entire total gene pool comes from max 20 wild roth. Out of thousands that were wild collected and died over the last 40 years....

Not so much about availability, but there were a lot of roth on the market of 3-4 'proven' crosses, including many, many wild ones just collected and precultivated, so it was pointless to make seedlings using average/low quality parents, both aesthetically and commercially.

 

[Royal Rea]

I have a few roths and St Swithins that have Commander in the mix selfings. I guess originally from Radcliffe. I see your point about Nurseries using names of good quality plants in crosses in order to sell, when in fact they are anything but those named. And therefore the result is very average. As you said it is important to get plants from trustworthy places.

 

[Roth]

I have a few roths and St Swithins that have Commander in the mix selfings. I guess originally from Radcliffe. I see your point about Nurseries using names of good quality plants in crosses in order to sell, when in fact they are anything but those named. And therefore the result is very average. As you said it is important to get plants from trustworthy places.

Yes, Ratcliffe were the only ones to have roth with Commander in the pedigree back then. I think Orchids Limited had a couple they used in breeding though. There were some very famous ones that were Commander x self, including Blackbird, Whitethroat, Nightingale, etc....