- Oct 23, 2006
- Reaction score
From what I understand, I think godefroyae has purple dots on the underside while the other has solid purple. Is it a reliable trait? good question but you need to see a lot more plants to come to the conclusion/answer. Modern mixed breeds may play a trick--just another possibility but I am no breeder or trained taxonomist.Leslie, I checked the undies of both .... P. godefroyae and var. leucochilum and yup ...... both purple. Therefore this should be a trait you shouldn't rely on.
Tom, both have a solid purple underside of the leaves .... beside of that ... also my P. niveum has in some leaves a solid purple underside. So I wouldn't see this as a reliable trait.From what I understand, I think godefroyae has purple dots on the underside while the other has solid purple. Is it a reliable trait? .....
In original description of Cypripedium godefroyae var. leucochilum (ROLFE, 1894) is mentioned a clear pure white pouch without spots......Others may say the pure white pouch is not a reliable trait either--some identified leucochilum do have minor spots on the pouch. If you identify/judge a leucochilum/(or classify any species) just based on the pure white pouch(which I do prefer), that might be too shallow. You guys are so focused on the pure white pouch.......take a look at the original description if you can and the follow-up population after its discovery.
Meanwhile some taxonomists... but not all .... and unfortunately KEW Science follows them, have raised this variety to species status...but there must be a lot more unique differences for it to be a separate species. I would start looking for those differences...
Let's keep niveum out of this discussion. There are a few more species that have purple undersides... Let me clarify this, These are not my findings, a trait or not, we need to look at more plants that have been properly identified. What about the differences on the upper side of the leaves, the tooth....Tom, both have a solid purple underside of the leaves .... beside of that ... also my P. niveum has in some leaves a solid purple underside. So I wouldn't see this as a reliable trait.
Don't forget the original description is based on one or a few plants. Even if the pure white pouch was mentioned in the original, but the later population might have a few spots... it would be way too extreme to disqualify a plant because it has A spot/even a few spots on the pouch while everything else fits for that species.In original description of Cypripedium godefroyae var. leucochilum (ROLFE, 1894) is mentioned a clear pure white pouch without spots.
I agree with your observation about how Kew handled some of the identification. but just remember some of the early collected godefroyae plants have very different looks (much skinnier/less full, unlike the full flower of the leucochilum).Meanwhile some taxonomists... but not all .... and unfortunately KEW Science follows them, have raised this variety to species status.
But I and I think I can speak here for the other members of the T.E.l.L. , we can't see a true species in this plants. In our eyes they are only a variety of Paph. godefroyae (with a clear and pure white pouch).
Also just my two cents.
Incidentally I WAS born in the year of the Rooster!You are such a chicken!
I might have expressed myself too bombastic - by 'universally' I just meant by a large chunk, maybe even a majority of (otherwise sensible) botanist! Of course there will never be - and never should be total unanimousity on everything among botanists - that would leave science petrified and dogmatical - and would soon bring them all on the dole after the 'publish or perish' principle!Jen, my citation is from Lance Birk's book. He had explored the jungles for slipper orchids quite extensively. Are his findings accepted universally? I am afraid there is no such thing even if it is from the top taxonomist.
What I don't get you guys is that you'll disqualify a plant just because it has a single spot/even a few spots on the lip while everything else fits that species.
This is also my perception on these flowers/this plant because the other flower seems to be without a spot ....and that I erased this tiny spot in the photo was more a joke and I think .... Leslie accepted it as a joke.Leslie, if you accept the point of view, that leucochilum is, at the most, a variety of godefroyae, I might be persuaded to live with these flowers/plant as leucochilum... and some darn good flowers they are, indeed! ........
That's good point, Dirk but not enough to raise this plant to species status ... so var. leucochilum fits.Please let us also not forget that "leuco-chilum" means "white-lip" and was clearly named by Rolfe with this unique feature in mind....
I find this weighs a lot and in my eyes more than all the soft criterias which you cited from L. Birk.
Olaf is a bit ambivalent in my eyes. On the one hand he follows the pure white pouch proponents, e.g............
By the way, Rudolf, what does Gruß (ORG) say on the matter in his new three volumes monograph on the genus?