A
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Roy
Well-Known Member
Thats either hirsutissimum or esquirolei also.
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albert
Guest
Roy, i can not agree on this, its a completely different flower.
Albert
Albert
Rick
Well-Known Member
I agree with Roy. It's within the variation of hirsutisimum.
Splitting between var esquirolei and the nominal hirsutisimum is a bit of a size difference and less hair on the stem and ovary.
Splitting between var esquirolei and the nominal hirsutisimum is a bit of a size difference and less hair on the stem and ovary.
JeanLux
Well-Known Member
Paph. chiwuanum.
Ramon
had the same thought Ramon! here a pict. of mine from 2007. Jean
Roy
Well-Known Member
Could be but is still only a variety of hirsutissimum Tang & Wang, PJ Cribb. or esquirolei v Chiwuanum Braem & Chiron.
From Kew list of Monocots.
From Kew list of Monocots.
Lance Birk
Well-Known Member
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Neither flower is fully open so quality comparisons cannot be made.
I'd go with Roy, ...... but I wonder if each could be a crosse between the two.
Plants and flowers of P. hirsutissimum and P. esquirolei are easily distinguishable.
I'd go with Roy, ...... but I wonder if each could be a crosse between the two.
Plants and flowers of P. hirsutissimum and P. esquirolei are easily distinguishable.
SlipperKing
Madd Virologist
Until someone crosses the two!
These flowers are answers to those who love to cross varieties and confuse us
NYEric
Well-Known Member
Yes, select seedling of Paph newspeciesforsuckers now available for only $400,000! :evil:
Roy
Well-Known Member
:rollhappy: Now your with it. Phrag bessandroianum.
Roy
Well-Known Member
Fair chance its what we are buying now.
Roy
Well-Known Member
Just another addition to a subject that is widely discused now.
Leo Schordje
wilted blossom
Lance
What is your feeling? I have individual plants with lots of long hairs on the ovary, some with smooth, hairless ovaries, and some with several levels of in-between in terms of hairs on the ovary. I thought this trait was the key to distinguishing hirsustissimum from esquirolei? If that is the key trait - there seems to be no bright line between the two species. One big, widespread, variable swarm of intergrades?
With the 20 to 26 months required to mature seed pods on this group, the probably not that many hybrids forms out there. I think most of the ones being passed around these days are divisions from the days when these were imported by the bushel load. I know there are some hybrid plants out there, I have seen a the occasional seedling offering, but most for sale most often are divisions of collected plants.
Your thoughts?
Leo
What is your feeling? I have individual plants with lots of long hairs on the ovary, some with smooth, hairless ovaries, and some with several levels of in-between in terms of hairs on the ovary. I thought this trait was the key to distinguishing hirsustissimum from esquirolei? If that is the key trait - there seems to be no bright line between the two species. One big, widespread, variable swarm of intergrades?
With the 20 to 26 months required to mature seed pods on this group, the probably not that many hybrids forms out there. I think most of the ones being passed around these days are divisions from the days when these were imported by the bushel load. I know there are some hybrid plants out there, I have seen a the occasional seedling offering, but most for sale most often are divisions of collected plants.
Your thoughts?
Leo
Lance Birk
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- 182
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Let's forget feelings, let's discuss facts. What we know is that P. hirsutissimum is a cool growing species with short stems that mostly stay in the foliage. It has much broader, shorter leaves than those of P. esquirolei and they are not as deeply channeled, the acute tips of which rarely are one-toothed. It blooms in mid to late winter.
P. esquirolei grows at lower elevations and likes more warmth, day and night. Stems are well above the foliage. Leaves are long and thin (somewhat thicker than P. hirsutissimum), deeply channeled with acute, one-toothed tips. blooms March to May.
The second species has long hairs on the stem, ovary and bracts but not as long or numerous as those of the first species. I don't know what taxonomist would limit identification to a single characteristic.
The ranges of each sometimes overlap, even flowers have been seen during the same time period, however the elevation differences are probably the reason we have such distinct populations rather than piles and piles of muddy mixes. (Supports my theory of species-specific pollinators).
You bring up an interesting point, one that I may have overlooked. For the past two years I have left selfed seed pods on my P. hirsutissimum for just over 12 months, and have had no seeds after cutting open the pods. Rands and I each made hirsutissimum crosses years ago, and we found that 12 months (rather than the normal 6-7) was just about right. I have suspected self-sterility with my clone, perhaps I have cut them too soon. .......on the other hand, there were NO seeds in either of my two pods. Oh well! This year I'll leave my pod on for much longer. Thanks for the clue.
As far as available plants on the market, you (we) will never know the source for certain. How many orchid growers do you know who make a few seed pods, grow a few plants and then take a bunch of extras to the raffle table? Where do these plants wind up? Are all hybrids registered? How do YOU know most of these plants are divisions of collected plants? How many growers do you suppose still have all the same plants after 5 or 6 years? It's been nearly 20 years since the ban. ....... And so on and so on.
......... when you get all the answers, let us all know.... Meanwhile, we all need to do our best at culturing our plants, and enjoy them for whatever the label says they are.
P. esquirolei grows at lower elevations and likes more warmth, day and night. Stems are well above the foliage. Leaves are long and thin (somewhat thicker than P. hirsutissimum), deeply channeled with acute, one-toothed tips. blooms March to May.
The second species has long hairs on the stem, ovary and bracts but not as long or numerous as those of the first species. I don't know what taxonomist would limit identification to a single characteristic.
The ranges of each sometimes overlap, even flowers have been seen during the same time period, however the elevation differences are probably the reason we have such distinct populations rather than piles and piles of muddy mixes. (Supports my theory of species-specific pollinators).
You bring up an interesting point, one that I may have overlooked. For the past two years I have left selfed seed pods on my P. hirsutissimum for just over 12 months, and have had no seeds after cutting open the pods. Rands and I each made hirsutissimum crosses years ago, and we found that 12 months (rather than the normal 6-7) was just about right. I have suspected self-sterility with my clone, perhaps I have cut them too soon. .......on the other hand, there were NO seeds in either of my two pods. Oh well! This year I'll leave my pod on for much longer. Thanks for the clue.
As far as available plants on the market, you (we) will never know the source for certain. How many orchid growers do you know who make a few seed pods, grow a few plants and then take a bunch of extras to the raffle table? Where do these plants wind up? Are all hybrids registered? How do YOU know most of these plants are divisions of collected plants? How many growers do you suppose still have all the same plants after 5 or 6 years? It's been nearly 20 years since the ban. ....... And so on and so on.
......... when you get all the answers, let us all know.... Meanwhile, we all need to do our best at culturing our plants, and enjoy them for whatever the label says they are.
Roy
Well-Known Member
Lance, I asked a question of an orchid person some time ago about pod time for hirsutissimum. He also referred the question to another grower in Germany well experienced in breeding with hirsutissimum and the replay was 11 - 14 months to mature the seeds in the pod. He doesn't say if that is the minimum time required for Green pod culture but that is what my understanding is. Dry seed from another source is apprx' 14 months, dependant on growing conditions. Pod observation from 12 months.
C
Corbin
Guest
Other than a wild collected plant is there such a thing as a "true" species for sale on the market? Look at any species and compare photos of various ones being sold by different vendors and you can get to wondering real quick which is really the species. I understand there is natural variation but in some cases one would have to think that there is extremely wide variation for all the ones being offered to be a real "species."
emydura
Well-Known Member
Harold Koopowitz says 15-18 months for hirsutissimum and 6-9 months for esquirolei.
David
David
Roy
Well-Known Member
Ed, you hit the nail on the head. IMO because of the 'outcrossing' done with, as discussed at length, philippinense and the chamberlainianum, primulinum, moquettianum, glaucophyllum lines, to get an 'uncorrupted' strain of a species of these plants would be a stroke of luck at best unless the hybridist has a wild collected plant that was selfed. At this point in time I would think that paphs such as tigrinum, hangianum, armeniacum, argus, fairrieanum, sukhakulii and a number of others would probably be ok as there are as far as I know, no other plants discovered that could be cross bred with them that doesn't alter the 'type shape and description' save the minor variations that do occur.
