Paph sanderianum 'Jungle Magic'

[Roth]

Yeah, I had one from Ray rands and it was labeled as "Jacob's Ladder", guess what, it was not, not even a sanderianum.

Yes that was the infamous Deep Pockets x Jacob's Ladder cross sold by the Orchid Zone everywhere, turned out to be PEOY.

 

[silence882]

Yes that was the infamous Deep Pockets x Jacob's Ladder cross sold by the Orchid Zone everywhere, turned out to be PEOY.

Do you happen to remember what year the mistake flasks were sold and what year the PEOYs started blooming?

 

[Roth]

In Phil Cribb photos, the leaves on the wild one have no "white vein"

Those ones have:

http://www.orchidspecies.com/orphotdir/paphiosande.jpg

 

[DrLeslieEe]

Now the pouch color bothers me a bit too. It didn't show a hint of purple, especially from the last photo........As we're all aware, 10 years ago, everyone had "sanderianum" for sale and the majority of them were not real/pure.
Please ask your friend, Leslie. Another set of eyes is always helpful. I could be totally wrong here.

Well it seems like both Zephyrus and Xavier (plus me) seem to agree in our opinions that this is a sanderianum. Just FYI.

 

[Roth]

Do you happen to remember what year the mistake flasks were sold and what year the PEOYs started blooming?

That's a much more complicated story than that...

The flasks were made by Norris Powell of 'sanderianum'. The Orchid Zone had bloomed and pictured Deep Pockets and Jacob's Ladder, though the cross did not take... So they bought back from Norris Powell flasks....

They started to be released around 1993-1994. I bloomed mine around 1996+, and the Taiwanese not short after, maybe a year later. The Orchid Zone at first denied the first hybrid blooms as being from their 'sanderianum', but when masses bloomed everywhere, they had to acknowledge it was indeed a hybrid, on a case by case basis ( kind of, if you did not bloom them, it might be sanderianum after all...).

Most of the wholesale customers asked back then for their money back, one of the largest being Ching Hua Orchids at that time. This said, the whole chain made a lot of money, as many hobbyists had killed theirs, and did not claim the money. The retail sellers usually refunded/accepted claims only if the plant had bloomed, even if they knew it was not a sanderianum.

On the side of the Orchid Zone, it was their main commercial income, so they offered to the wholesalers to deduct the sanderianum purchase from their future purchases, over time, as a percentage. Can't remember if it was 10 or 20% each time they were buying.

Some of those wholesalers told me an interesting story, in that 'divisions' or selected plants would be overpriced, and the deduction would be applied. Which means not so much of a financial loss.

Like the urbanianum in Europe and the victoria-mariae, the sanderianum was a punishment too for lying to their customers, and saying it is Deep Pockets x Jacob's Ladder, where in fact they were purchased from Norris Powell as generic sanderianum flasks... and subsequently proliferated, as those did clump readily in flask...

 

[Tom-DE]

Those ones have:

http://www.orchidspecies.com/orphotdir/paphiosande.jpg

I see although it is hardly on one leaf... Thank you for the education.
As I said in my first post, "I am not 100% sure but don't take my word for it"...Am I still in doubt? maybe. That might be because I expect a lot more from sanderianum.

 

[spujr]

That's a much more complicated story than that...

The flasks were made by Norris Powell of 'sanderianum'. The Orchid Zone had bloomed and pictured Deep Pockets and Jacob's Ladder, though the cross did not take... So they bought back from Norris Powell flasks....

They started to be released around 1993-1994. I bloomed mine around 1996+, and the Taiwanese not short after, maybe a year later. The Orchid Zone at first denied the first hybrid blooms as being from their 'sanderianum', but when masses bloomed everywhere, they had to acknowledge it was indeed a hybrid, on a case by case basis ( kind of, if you did not bloom them, it might be sanderianum after all...).

Most of the wholesale customers asked back then for their money back, one of the largest being Ching Hua Orchids at that time. This said, the whole chain made a lot of money, as many hobbyists had killed theirs, and did not claim the money. The retail sellers usually refunded/accepted claims only if the plant had bloomed, even if they knew it was not a sanderianum.

On the side of the Orchid Zone, it was their main commercial income, so they offered to the wholesalers to deduct the sanderianum purchase from their future purchases, over time, as a percentage. Can't remember if it was 10 or 20% each time they were buying.

Some of those wholesalers told me an interesting story, in that 'divisions' or selected plants would be overpriced, and the deduction would be applied. Which means not so much of a financial loss.

Like the urbanianum in Europe and the victoria-mariae, the sanderianum was a punishment too for lying to their customers, and saying it is Deep Pockets x Jacob's Ladder, where in fact they were purchased from Norris Powell as generic sanderianum flasks... and subsequently proliferated, as those did clump readily in flask...

Was Jacob's Ladder ever a true sanderianum? If so what happened to it? Seems to been erased from the face of the earth.

Probably reflects what you said before, many of the famous varieties simply died out and now the existing gene pool in cultivation is limited to a handful of founding parents.

 

[silence882]

That's a much more complicated story than that...

The flasks were made by Norris Powell of 'sanderianum'. The Orchid Zone had bloomed and pictured Deep Pockets and Jacob's Ladder, though the cross did not take... So they bought back from Norris Powell flasks....

They started to be released around 1993-1994. I bloomed mine around 1996+, and the Taiwanese not short after, maybe a year later. The Orchid Zone at first denied the first hybrid blooms as being from their 'sanderianum', but when masses bloomed everywhere, they had to acknowledge it was indeed a hybrid, on a case by case basis ( kind of, if you did not bloom them, it might be sanderianum after all...).

Most of the wholesale customers asked back then for their money back, one of the largest being Ching Hua Orchids at that time. This said, the whole chain made a lot of money, as many hobbyists had killed theirs, and did not claim the money. The retail sellers usually refunded/accepted claims only if the plant had bloomed, even if they knew it was not a sanderianum.

On the side of the Orchid Zone, it was their main commercial income, so they offered to the wholesalers to deduct the sanderianum purchase from their future purchases, over time, as a percentage. Can't remember if it was 10 or 20% each time they were buying.

Some of those wholesalers told me an interesting story, in that 'divisions' or selected plants would be overpriced, and the deduction would be applied. Which means not so much of a financial loss.

Like the urbanianum in Europe and the victoria-mariae, the sanderianum was a punishment too for lying to their customers, and saying it is Deep Pockets x Jacob's Ladder, where in fact they were purchased from Norris Powell as generic sanderianum flasks... and subsequently proliferated, as those did clump readily in flask...

Thanks very much for the backstory!

Did any of the jungle collected plants bloom with meter-long petals? Or has that been achieved through line breeding?

 

[Roth]

Well Deep Pockets and Jacob's Ladder died a very long time ago. They were wild collected plants coming from Henry Azadehdel, like all the sanderianum from the 80s early 90s in fact...

Many jungle collected plants bloom with meter long petals. Rapunzel would be one for example, but there were many. As for the number of generations, whilst sanderianum hybrids are several generations, pure sanderianum artificially propagated are right now at max F2. The AQ/AOS was from 2 wild parents, and its progeny is therefore the second generation as an example...

Again, hybrids have to be made, and they cannot be found in the wild. For the species, precultivated sands were cheap and easy to get until the early 2010s about...