Paph. leucochilum

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GuRu

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Really lovely flower but I don't think it will open more. Have a look at the shape of the dorsal with its wrinkle at the top.....this shape hinders the flower to open more. I think.
 
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DrLeslieEe

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Really lovely flower but I don't think it will open more. Have a look at the shape of the dorsal with its wrinkle at the top.....this shape hinders the flower to open more. I think.
FTF, sometimes the huge dorsal impedes the petals from opening. May differ between bloomings. In this case, the shape is pretty much set. Next time then.

Rudolf, did you notice the 3 spots on the pouch? I thought it would riled you up re: the right name lol.
 
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GuRu

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......Rudolf, did you notice the 3 spots on the pouch? I thought it would riled your up re: the right name lol.
Leslie, of course I saw the spots on the pouch and.......some weeks ago I would have pointed out on them......
To be honest, the possibility a Paph. leucochilum could have spots on the pouch doesn't still convince me. Before I wrote my post here yesterday I had a close look regarding Paph. leucochilum in Olaf's new book. I find, even there isn't visible a clear line and after reading all about Paph. leucochilum I was as clever as before.
-Olaf's talking of Paph. godefroyae f. leuchochilum not of Paph. leucochilum as a true species
-He writes under the point describiton:
"The colour form has got the same shape and colouration as Paph. godefroyae. Except the lip doesn't show any spots or drawings. Often the flowers are bigger than these of Pah. godefroyae.
-He writes under the point Variations:
".........In fact there are also almost reddish-black clones of the forma leucochilum, but they don't conform in no way the describtion of the form. There is not only written that the shoe/pouch doesn't have any spots/dots but also that the shoe/pouch is clearly white. Therefore these dark clones have to be classified as Paph. godefroyae f. godefroyae."
He writes under the point possibilities of confusion:
"It distinguishes by the normal form of Paph. godefroyae by its clear white shoe/pouch."
Olaf shows a lot of photos of Paph. g. f. leucochilum. The majority do have a spotless white pouch but unfortunately he shows also few photos with few spots on the lip/pouch.
And he wites furthermore :
According to CRIBB and FUCHS (personal communication) there exist at the location plants with a clear white pouch as well as plants with dots/spots on its lips.

What next?
 
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DrLeslieEe

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Leslie, of course I saw the spots on the pouch and.......some weeks ago I would have pointed out on them......
To be honest, the possibility a Paph. leucochilum could have spots on the pouch doesn't still convince me. Before I wrote my post here yesterday I had a close look regarding Paph. leucochilum in Olaf's new book. I find, even there isn't visible a clear line and after reading all about Paph. leucochilum I was as clever as before.
-Olaf's talking of Paph. godefroyae f. leuchochilum not of Paph. leucochilum as a true species
-He writes under the point describiton:
"The colour form has got the same shape and colouration as Paph. godefroyae. Except the lip doesn't show any spots or drawing. Often the flowers are bigger than these of Pah. godefroyae.
-He writes under the point Variations:
".........In fact there are also almost reddish-black clones of the forma leucochilum, but they don't conform in no way the describtion of the form. There is not only written that the shoe/pouch doesn't have any spots/dots but also that the shoe/pouch is clearly white. Therefore have to be classified these dark clones as Paph. godefroyae f. godefroyae."
He writes under the point possibilities of confusion:
"It distinguishes by the normal form of Paph. godefroyae by its clear white shoe/pouch."
Olaf shows a lot of photos of Paph. g. f. leucochilum. The majority do have a spotless white pouch but unfortunately he shows also few photos with few spots on the lip/pouch.
And he wites furthermore :
According to CRIBB and FUCHS (personal communication) there exist at the location plants with a clear white pouch as wel as plants with dots/spots on its lips.

What next?
So the question remains if some leucochilums that have some dark spots on pouch in some bloomings is still a leucochilum ... and whether it is a true leuco species at that moment with aberrant rare spotting such as on every other bloomings on the same plant.. or indeed a true species at all since it is considered a valid species by Kew on the WCSP. This confusion is further distracted by the fact that in one locality, spots are found on some pouches on the same population of pure leucochilums... hmmmmm makes one wonder if a white pouch is simply a gene expression in the same one species godefroyae, like eye color genes in humans.
 

GuRu

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....... or indeed a true species at all since it is considered a valid species by Kew on the WCSP.........
In the past KEW Science was to me the one and only source to assess a species status......but in the case to accept Paph. leucochilum as a valid species.....I can't follow this assessment.
 

eds

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That description of flower colour alone being the difference fits the notion of a forma designation. I grow a lot of different hardy geranium (and used to grow over 250 species, hybrids, cultivars and forms) and I can grow Geranium pratense f. albiflorum from mixed seed. Seed from those plants can give me a lot of white flowers but also other colour forms.

To designate it as a species (if that is the only difference) is madness as it doesn't represent a genetically isolated group. If the white pouched forms selectively bred with white pouched forms in the wild and were genetically isolated but without that a species designation is not warranted.

And I'm a splitter by heart when saying this!
 

GuRu

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@ FTF I'm begging your pardon to misuse your thread with taxononic conversation.
 
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Fan Tan Fannie

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@ FTF I'm begging your pardon to misuse your thread with taxononic conversation.
@ GuRu No worries. Very interesting to read about the conversations.
I noticed there are 3 dots in the pouch when it first opens. I was hoping for a dotless one. but I think it is still pretty. Next time, I am wishing for a dotless pouch, more red and rounder flower LOL...
 

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