Paph insigne 'Harefield Hall'

[emydura]

First time flowering for me. I know a lot of these turn out to be fakes. David Banks said many of the Harefield Hall's coming out of Sydney were hybrids (and this one came from Sydney). But based on photos I have seen this one looks like the real deal. Do you agree?

I got this one in 2008 as a 3 growth division. From that moment the plant went downhill. It wouldn't grow, the leaves were limp and had that sickly green colour. The root system was poor. It was getting hammered by scale. I repotted it and the division fell apart into single growths. One of the growths died and the others were heading the same way. I had no expectation of them improving. Then I changed my fertilising regime (low K, MAGAMP, high Mg and Ca and kelp). These plants suddenly picked up. They grew well, the leaves look great and the scale disappeared. This division has put out a nice new large growth. The other division is still a single growth but is now growing well and looks really healthy.

One of these sold for $140 on Ebay last weekend. It was a similar size to mine although a little better and in bud. I paid a 1/3 of the price on eBay four years ago.


Paph insigne 'Harefield Hall'

 

[Ozpaph]

great flower..............but I wasn't going to pay $140 for it, either!
Do you know the providence of the Ebay plant? Was it the same source as yours?

 

[emydura]

great flower..............but I wasn't going to pay $140 for it, either!
Do you know the providence of the Ebay plant? Was it the same source as yours?

No, my plant came from Sydney (on the label it said ex N.F., which stands for Neil Finch I assume). The one on the weekend was from a deceased Adelaide grower.

 

[Ozpaph]

thanks.
Is HHall a triploid or tetraploid? I dont know much about its history and would be keen to hear the story.

 

[quietaustralian]

thanks.
Is HHall a triploid or tetraploid? I dont know much about its history and would be keen to hear the story.

I read somewhere that 'Harefield Hall' has a chromosome count of 2N=39. I wonder how they could be sure they were doing a chromosome count on 'Harefield Hall' ?

Mick

 

[Susie11]

Wow, I love it.

 

[emydura]

thanks.
Is HHall a triploid or tetraploid? I dont know much about its history and would be keen to hear the story.

It is a triploid. I'm sure there are others who know a lot more about this clone than me that can help out. I remember reading somewhere it was collected around 1860 (from my hazy memory). I can't remember from where exactly. Hopefully someone can tell us where.

It is nice to have a division of such an old plant with such a great history.

 

[quietaustralian]

David, I don't know what this flower is but it's very nice. I have read so much conflicting information about 'Harefield Hall' it's difficult to say. I have three different clones tagged 'Harefield Hall', two of which are in bud now for the first time. The description of the plant in the Gardeners Chronicle, December 1898 and the painting of the RHS award give some idea.

Mick
​

 

[emydura]

Thanks Mick. It certainly looks like the painting. It is much bigger and chunkier than my normal insigne's. But it wouldn't reach the dimensions in that article. This is a small plant however and I expect the flower will get bigger on a larger clump.

It will be interesting to see yours as a comparison. Do they come from different sources?

 

[eggshells]

That is so nice that it looks like a hybrid hope yours is a true pure species.

 

[Roth]

I read somewhere that 'Harefield Hall' has a chromosome count of 2N=39. I wonder how they could be sure they were doing a chromosome count on 'Harefield Hall' ?

Mick

It is a triploid, and the chromosome count has been done in the 70's or 80's by Don Wimber. There were genuine authentic Harefield Hall in several collections, that have been sold and splitted, such as Armacost and Royston, Hill, McBean, Stewart Orchids, Eric Young private collection, De Graaf... all linked to famous orchidist, Betty Bracey, Rex van Delden, Leo Holguin...

Those nurseries had the real ones, with the history of their plants. Since they all closed, we do not know where those plants are today. Emydura plant flower could be correct, however the plants I saw at Stewart ages ago were short and very wide leafed. They did not clump either, this was a trait that made HH really expensive for ages. Sometimes they made a shoot on the old rhizome, most of the time not. If your plant makes 2 shoot out of an old one, it is for sure not Harefield Hall. All the people who owned genuine divisions told the same story, great flower, impossible to divide or nearly so.

 

[Rick]

Damn that's a big wide insigne.:clap:

Good growing and great save David!!

 

[tim]

sry man that's not the real deal. very different dorsal on yours, which to me is Actaeus or maybe a normal form crossed to HH. I have seen many pieces in flower both at Orchid Zone and in the collection of Arnie Klehm (from the collection of W.W. Wilson), and they look identical to the RHS illustration: a tall dorsal with some rolling at the base, wide petals held fairly flat. The foliage is as yours, quite a bit wider than normal insigne. It does of course clump over time, but not as readily as a normal insigne.

It is a triploid, but clearly breeds, as the early history of English hybridization includes mention of HH as a parent in numerous occasions, such as Actaeus 'Durbar' AM/RHS, Goliath AM/RHS, insigne 'Gatton Park', and in the grex Troilus, with several awards.

 

[goldenrose]

I would have guessed a nice exul!

 

[emydura]

sry man that's not the real deal. very different dorsal on yours, which to me is Actaeus or maybe a normal form crossed to HH. I have seen many pieces in flower both at Orchid Zone and in the collection of Arnie Klehm (from the collection of W.W. Wilson), and they look identical to the RHS illustration: a tall dorsal with some rolling at the base, wide petals held fairly flat. The foliage is as yours, quite a bit wider than normal insigne. It does of course clump over time, but not as readily as a normal insigne.

It is a triploid, but clearly breeds, as the early history of English hybridization includes mention of HH as a parent in numerous occasions, such as Actaeus 'Durbar' AM/RHS, Goliath AM/RHS, insigne 'Gatton Park', and in the grex Troilus, with several awards.

Thanks Tim.

Robert posted one here -

http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10201

It is funny as I think the dorsal is almost identical other than mine hasn't reflexed. Mine could be still opening as it hasn't been long, so I expect the dorsal will reflex. I will wait another week and post another photo. The petals are more of an issue for me. The colour looks lighter although it looks like Robert may have used a flash.

You here people saying in Australia that they remember seeing gigantic specimen plants of 'Harefield Hall'. Roy mentions that in the above link. But if what Tim and Xavier are saying is correct, this clone would never make a specimen plant.

 

[jimspaphs]

so many Harefield Halls

David I have 2 clones taged as Harefield Hall.the one on the left is much larger and has very slow growth.The one on the right came from Mackineys Nursery many years ago and is a good grower.--If I had to vote the one on the left would win as the true Harefield.

First time flowering for me. I know a lot of these turn out to be fakes. David Banks said many of the Harefield Hall's coming out of Sydney were hybrids (and this one came from Sydney). But based on photos I have seen this one looks like the real deal. Do you agree?

I got this one in 2008 as a 3 growth division. From that moment the plant went downhill. It wouldn't grow, the leaves were limp and had that sickly green colour. The root system was poor. It was getting hammered by scale. I repotted it and the division fell apart into single growths. One of the growths died and the others were heading the same way. I had no expectation of them improving. Then I changed my fertilising regime (low K, MAGAMP, high Mg and Ca and kelp). These plants suddenly picked up. They grew well, the leaves look great and the scale disappeared. This division has put out a nice new large growth. The other division is still a single growth but is now growing well and looks really healthy.

One of these sold for $140 on Ebay last weekend. It was a similar size to mine although a little better and in bud. I paid a 1/3 of the price on eBay four years ago.


P]

 

[emydura]

Thanks Jim. Yes, the first plant looks a lot more like it and not dissimilar to mine. The fact mine hasn't reflexed yet is making it hard to compare. I checked it this morning and the petals have widened a little further and the dorsal looks to have started reflexing.

Mine is also a very slow grower and doesn't look like it will develop into a clump of any size.

 

[W. Beetus]

The bloom has a great shape! Nice!

 

[SlipperKing]

Cool plants. Nice discussion

 

[SlipperFan]

I wouldn't mind having that one!