nutrient deficiency symptom in orchids

[naoki]

I came across a clear case of nutrient deficiency with my Phrag, so I thought I would share. It might be somewhat interesting. It is a small Phrag warszewiczianum (former wallisii, with the sharp lip edge).



The top leaf on the left (and the base of the right leaf) has white bands (chlorosis). Below is my reasoning, and I'd like to see what you think.

This happened to the newly expanding regions of the leaves and not appearing in the old leaves, so the deficiency is likely to be due to phloem immobile elements. Boron, Iron and Calcium are the typical immobile elements. Then copper, manganese, molybdenum, sulfur and zinc are moderately mobile. "mobile" means that when there is some deficiency in the growing tissues, those needed elements in the older tissues will move to the new tissues. So the symptoms of the deficiency in mobile elements like N, P, K, and Mg appears in the older leaves at first.

So I suspected Iron or Ca, and decided to measure the pH of pour through. But pH was OK around 6 (high pH causes Fe deficiency in general). I have been trying to use up the fertilizer made from old MSU concentrate (from 2-3 years ago, I think). Before that I was using fertilizer without Ca or Dyna-Gro, so I didn't know about the precipitation issues (or I was underestimating the issue). Then I was reading Bjorn's DIY fertilizer thread. After looking at DavidCampen's and Bjorn's recipe, I started to learn about the precipitation. From what I can find, the main precipitation could be one of
CaSO4, CaHPO4, MgHPO4, K2SO4

So I'm guessing the symptom is coming from Ca deficiency. Although chlorosis may not be the "typical" Ca deficiency symptom in crops, nutrient recycling rates of epiphytes/orchids seem to be quite different from crop plants, so the symptom may be different for different species.

I'm not good at chemistry, so I don't understand why they precipitate. But I know there are lots of people who understand chemistry here. So my question is this: are there any other (especially micro-) elements which may precipitate if you make a concentrated stock solution?

Anyway, I thought that it might be fun to see what happens to Phrag if you keep ignoring the precipitation of fertilizer. It is also interesting that other species didn't show the same symptom.

 

[Bjorn]

I've seen similar things as well Naoki, mostly on newly aquired plants or plants from flask. They keep the chlorotic spots but may eventually grow out of it. May well be some non-translocatable deficiency like Ca. Try with some crushed limestone sprinkling, or oyster shell. But as mentioned do not believe that the spots will disappear, but new growth may be healtier.
PS: just a suggestion, might be something alse and more "exotic", but calcium addition will normally not harm. Just remember that limestone is not lime. Limestone is calcium carbonate while lime commonly is calcium hydroxide. The latter has a high pH and is dangerous to use.

 

[Ray]

The primary effect of a calcium deficiency is necrosis of the meristem - black leaf tips - is it not?

Even though it is translocatable, I have seen that happen in plants that were deprived of magnesium (Which, if we believe our discussions here, can follow a less-severe calcium deficiency). Adding a single BIG does of Epsom Salts remedied it over time.

 

[naoki]

I think I increased Ca (and whatever other things) with my hard well water (800-900ppm TDS). I use Dolomite Lime granules for other species, but I haven't used them for Phrags. But I'll keep eyes on, and I might add it. I think Dolomite Lime is closer to Limestone than to Lime (the powdered stuff), isn't it?

Well, the white region is from about one month of growth, and after I changed fertilization (about 3 weeks ago), the newer leaf (bottom part) started to become green. I gave CalMag (nitrates), then I added a bit more well water (my well water is 800-900ppm TDS, 1/2cp per gallon) to regular fertilization water. Then I used other fertilizers like Peter's and also fresh K-Lite. I did also give some Epsom salt. Since I changed a lot, I can't say exactly what it is.

I agree Ray, it doesn't seem to match with the textbook Ca deficiency. In corn, rice, and soybeans, there are lots of studies of the deficiency symptoms. But in orchids, most of them seems to be anecdotal, and I haven't found controlled experiments to show the deficiency symptoms in orchids (Wang has some in Phalaenopsis).

With Mg deficiency (in orchids), don't you have the chlorosis repaired after fixing the problem (i.e. chlorosis goes away)? Or have you seen some case where white region produced by Mg deficiency remained white?

The symptom does match with text book Fe deficiency, doesn't it? I don't understand Fe and chelation issues. Bjorn, does Fe possibly precipitate in concentrated fertilizer?

As a related note, when I was looking into DIY fertilizer, I came across this patent:
Water-soluble solid fertilizer using urea phosphate and calcium nitrate; precipitate-free solutions; non-chelated metal salt micronutrients
I don't understand it, but is it something possibly useful for DIY fert? Bjorn already use Urea.

 

[Ray]

With Mg deficiency (in orchids), don't you have the chlorosis repaired after fixing the problem (i.e. chlorosis goes away)? Or have you seen some case where white region produced by Mg deficiency remained white?

The replenishment of chlorophyll takes a while, but it does eventually correct itself.

 

[Stone]

Sorry to disagree but I don't see this as a deficiency. Or to put it more accurately, I don't think it is caused by a deficiency in nutrient application.

My reasoning: The chlorosis on the new leaf and the small band on the second newest leaf shows that this problem happened when the second leaf was 3/4 expanded and the new leaf still tiny. On both sides of the paleness we have green. This indicates some kind of short lived stress lasting perhaps a couple of months which inhibited uptake (quite possibly of iron from pH problem?). What that stress may have been is unknown but the fact that it has rectified itself together with the fact that others are not affected shows me that no change in fertilizer practice is needed. It may even be genetic?? I have a compot of sanderianums where one--only one seedling shows this white banding while the rest are fine. It seems to be growing out now but I have no idea what causes it.

 

[naoki]

Ray, that's true, I'll see if the white band disappears after a while.

Mike, you are good! But, you are still saying that it is nutrient deficiency (stress mediated), aren't you?

The MSU stock has tons of precipitation (the bottom of the container is completely covered by precipitated particles). Most people would ditch it.

I have 2 areas (cool-intermediate and intermediate-warm). The plant was in the cool area (was hitting low of 10-12C = 50-55F), but I moved it to the warm area around Dec. So this low temp is the stress (and the plant wasn't growing for a couple month before the move). Before the move, I was using the precipitated MSU without well water addition for a couple months. When it started to expand the leaf in the warm area, I noticed the white leaves. But I kept using precipitated MSU. As you guessed, the small green tip was already out last summer before the move. I originally thought that it is probably due to the shock from the sudden change in the environment, so I didn't do anything. In the beginning of Jan, the white area was getting bigger and bigger, so I decided to take an action, and checked media pH, and stopped using precipitated MSU. Then after a couple weeks of changing the fertilization, the new expansion became green (and the problem seems to be taken care of now).

So my logic was that sudden release from stress caused the plant to grow suddenly (and needed nutrients). Also the media of other plants in the cool area contains some sphag (higher CEC), but this phag was in pure bark. That's why the symptom is obvious only in this plant. I wasn't using the precipitated MSU so frequently in the warm area. It is still anecdotal, so we don't know the real cause.

I experienced white band before, but the cause wasn't clear. I suspected weak root system for those cases.

It is also possible there is some species or individuals which is susceptible in low nutrients. Did the white band of sanderianum remain white (what Bjorn said above)?

I probably should have tried supplementing with Chelated Fe, but I didn't have it. But from what I read, chlorosis due to Fe is supposed to disappear eventually (e.g. after chelated Fe irrigation or FeSO4 foliar spray). I think I should check the pH of the precipitated MSU.

 

[bullsie]

You made out well moving them when it started to get cool. I got an air bubble in my water system and being preoccupied with other serious issues never realized one of my rooms was getting no heat. Would have been nice if it had been any other room but the one the plants were in. I know for sure it hit the low 50's when I discovered it and may have well been in the 40's. Most of the Catts survived, but can't say the same for the Phrags.....oh well.....

 

[myxodex]

Sorry to disagree but I don't see this as a deficiency. Or to put it more accurately, I don't think it is caused by a deficiency in nutrient application.

My reasoning: The chlorosis on the new leaf and the small band on the second newest leaf shows that this problem happened when the second leaf was 3/4 expanded and the new leaf still tiny. On both sides of the paleness we have green. This indicates some kind of short lived stress lasting perhaps a couple of months which inhibited uptake (quite possibly of iron from pH problem?). What that stress may have been is unknown but the fact that it has rectified itself together with the fact that others are not affected shows me that no change in fertilizer practice is needed. It may even be genetic?? I have a compot of sanderianums where one--only one seedling shows this white banding while the rest are fine. It seems to be growing out now but I have no idea what causes it.

I also do not think this is a straight forward nutritional effect. It reminds me of the tiger-stripe variegation in some Neofinetia falcata varieties and with these there is almost certainly a genetic component. In the neo strains with this feature high light levels and rapid growth are often important to induce it and I've heard that there are even cultural methods aimed at enhancing or controlling this feature to get optimal display plants.

There are quite a number of neo strains with tiger stripe variegation showing different characteristics; some have white bands instead of yellow, some only show banding during the summer growth season after which it mostly disappears,... so it does seem as though this type of mutation has happened more than once in neos and it is also found in cymbidiums. I guess it would not be surprising to find it in other orchids as a latent or conditional phenotype and so only revealing itself under particular circumstances such as light, temperature, nutrient imbalance etc.

If a nutrient imbalance is involved I would have sulphur as my number one suspect. Not only is it essential for chlorophyll synthesis, S-limited plants can have increased light sensitivity which is thought to be due to low glutathione levels. Also your precipitated fertiliser was probably even lower in S than standard MSU is anyway.

 

[Happypaphy7]

I like your idea, Mike.

I also have one paph, only one among hundreds, showing this strange white band in the middle of one or two leaves.

Genetic sounds more like it.

 

[naoki]

I hope that your Phrags will be OK, bullsie.

It is interesting that Neo's tiger stripes are influenced by environment, myxodex! I didn't know that. But you are right, S is a likely candidate. In MSU, Ca is 8% and S is 0.1%. So in terms of the number of molecules, Ca:S is 8/40 : 0.1/32 = 64:1. So if the precipitation is CaSO4, S is much more likely to be depleted at first than Ca. Maybe Epsom salt helped it.

 

[Chicago Chad]

Naoki I use Sugar Daddy for S and Mg supplement.
http://www.technaflora.com/indexProduct.php?ID=106

 

[Stone]

The MSU stock has tons of precipitation (the bottom of the container is completely covered by precipitated particles). Most people would ditch it.

Yep I would definitly throw it out. Personally I don't like the idea of making stock solutions and in fact I always prepare my Calnitrate seperately before adding into the final mix. Even though you don't see them there may be microscopic precipitates in there after some hours? I also use hot water as some compounds are only slowly soluble and I use what I make up straight away.
However, I still believe that a good organic fertilizer may be best for Paphs in bark. (especially if they are repotted frequently) Unfortunately most of the commercial stuff is crap based on foul manure. (at least here anyway) It contains far too much ''hot'' ammonium for my liking.
In the ''old days'' they used blood and bone or hoof and horn to feed their paphs and never complained about deficiencies or root problems. (not to say they didn't happen).

These last several weeks I have abandoned the regular liquid feeding for these plants in favor of a very light sprinkle of some home made food based on blood and bone and rape seed meal blended with a soya meal, cow manure and blood and bone composted moist for 2 years. Then the whole mix is refermented moist for one month, dried until rock hard and broken up and used every 3 to 4 weeks.

The list of things you can add is endless, eg seaweed meal, fish meal, cotton seed meal etc etc. But all should be thouroughly decomposed (but not leached) before using. Once dry it lasts for years if stored well.
There is growing evidence too that many of these ''humus'' plants use organic N in the form of amino acids as a substantial part of their N needs. But it is the huge variety of rare trace elements (like Se, Ni, Na, Si etc etc) which they contain as well as many different forms of NPKCa which is interesting.

I will post a pic of the fertilizer and also a Paph hybrid which has had nothing but this type of organic feeding for over a year.

 

[Stone]

Ok so this is the fertilizer. Remember half of the ingredients are over 2 years old.
Cubed and fermented and dried: The mould has penetrated the entire cube (rock hard!!)


Crushed. Can be sieved to any size.. the larger the particles the longer it lasts but the more you need to apply:


The F.C Puddle (there are others but this illustrates the point well) fed only this for at least 18 months. It has been fed 3 times this season so far. It is due for a top up shortly. For a plant this size I would use enough to just cover a 10 cent piece (about 1 inch) in 3 places around the pot once per month during the growing season and nothing at all in winter.
As you can see, everything the plant needs is in the organic mix. This plant is subjected to very bright light (50%) for about 4 hours in the morning. Getting it to look darker than this is impossible without more shade.


I would love to see someone else trial this type of feeding.

 

[naoki]

Thanks, Chad. Wonder why it is called Sugar Daddy. I also wonder if it is different from Epsom Salt (Mg SO4).

Mike, it's looking great! Wow, composting for 2 years? I also have read some evidence showing that organic+inorganic fertilization is better than just chemical fert with orchids. As you said, those textbook 17 essential elements are not the only minerals which plants use (and some different species could use some different elements). So organic ones can supplement the missing ones possibly. With N source, different types of N source do influence the growth pattern of plants, but I wonder if it is the case with the other elements, though.

So I'm interested in organic ones, too. Composting (especially manure based ones) is a challenge for me in the cold climate. After your thread, I started my worm composting in the kitchen. And I'm also considering EM-1 bokashi. I wonder if EM-1 can speed up your 2 year process of composting. As a related note, I was reading this patent of Inocucor, and it mentions that they brew it with fish emulsion. So I also started to brew EM-1 with Molasses + a bit of fish emulsion in hope to add whatever "micro" stuff.

 

[Happypaphy7]

I used to use something similar to what Mike use.
What I used was sesame seed meal (I don't know the term, but basically the leftover material after the oil has been squeezed out of it, in the Far East, sesame oil is what nearly everyone uses for many things they cook or flavor, and these leftover was thrown out, so I got it for free all the time) mixed with some bone meal.
You add some water and place the gooey mixture in a jar (no glass but something that doesn't let the light through) and cover the opening with cotton pad. Leave this in the shade where the ventilation is good for about two months and then it is ready. While fermentation is going on, the smell is rather bad but once the thing is ready for use, the smell is not that disturbing at all and also a way to tell when it is ready.
I then made them into the shape of small balls (about one inch diameter)and dry in the air.
You can use it as is by placing it on top of the pot (one ball for a pot size of about 8 in, so this thing is rather strong) or make it into powder like Mike does.

Once you do not see this fertilizer in the pot, you add some more.
I only used it in the spring into early fall. about three times a year.
Everything grows very good with this.
It does attract bugs, not pest but flies and stuff. very annoying, plus some minor smell issues, but this is when I grew things out of the house.

Organic fertilizer as great as they are, is not an option for me unless I move out of the city. lol

 

[Chicago Chad]

They call it sugar daddy because there is also about 2% cane sugar in it. Also, to intice the cannabis growers. They use it just after the final stage of fertilizing with all the heavy macros, especially P. I guess it is the one thing they want left 'in' the plant at harvest.

 

[bullsie]

I hope that your Phrags will be OK, bullsie.

Thanks naoki! Sadly, I lost all my kovachi hybrids. Everyone else had badly burned leaves. They are now recovering but sure left me frazzled.

 

[andre]

I have had similar coloration lines near the crown of some of my large multi flowered Paph species. It happened after I sprayed with physan mixture that was way too concentrated. I have also bleached out areas from excessive light from my metal halide.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[naoki]

bullsie, I thought that P. kovachi is supposed to be fairly cool growing. But it's too bad you lost them....

andre, you are right, I have done the same thing with Physan (not this Phrag, though). Physan's tech info says: "PHYSAN generally is not phytotoxic to plants at concentrations below 400 ppm (1/4 ounce per gallon of water). However, this can vary depending on the type of plant and its stage of growth." That's 0.5TBS (or 1.4tsp) per gallon. But a bad combination of timing/environment seems to cause those minor injury.

Happypaphy, I guess you have to worry about the complaints from neighbors. Growing up in a Japanese farm, I do remember the stink during the fermentation, too.