K-lite fertilizer

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Hang on just a sec. If K is antagonistic to Ca Mg Fe Mn Zn CU as Rick's table suggests, how could reduced K levels lead to reduced toxicitiy from the above elements? PS. not arguing just trying to clarify :D

What is the definition of a toxicant versus nutrient?

All of the above (including K) are required nutrients for plant growth, but that doesn't mean that the plant can take on unlimited amounts of any of them without them becoming toxic. Evolution to the world around us (which is pretty much the same for every terrestrial life form). Means that all of the above elements have been put to use at some relation to how common it is in the environment. Copper is a required nutrient at very low ppb levels, and is never encountered in the real world at much higher than it is used. What would be the competative advantage to require a nutrient that you had to spend a ton of energy and time to obtain almost nothing. Really is the same for K but it is a lot more common in the environment than copper (but still not as common as Ca or Na). So you either adapt to what is more than you need or develop a competative use for what you have the most of in your environment. You don't spend all your time coming up with great things to do with resources you don't have access too. But once that system is in place, its a shared system for many other things. K aquisition is a developed high priority system in plants, but because K is rare, no feedback loops are put in place. But the K aquisition mechanism is also hooked to aquistion and utilization of a ton of other mechanisms. So without checks and balances on K uptake it over loads on other things. If you added unnaturally high levels of Fe or Cu you would get the same disruptions, but natural for those ellements is <<<<than for K.

Some of the metal substitution work in bacteria is instructive. Particluar enzyme rates were measured for certain enzymes that typically have zinc as the operative metal in the enzyme structure. (say something like sugar metabolism). By growing the bacteria in a cobalt rich environment (still below toxic acutely toxic thresholds) they got the bacteri to substitute Co for Zn in the enzyme. That enzyme rate was sped up by a factor of 1000X, and then most of the bacteria burned out. But thats lab physiology stuff. You could also ask why did God come up with zinc requiring enzymes in the first place, or when would bacteria even see elevated levels of cobalt in the environment?

None of this is linear. Need to envision this as a big spider web, with a different ellement at the juncture of the different threads. As you pull on one it moves all of them. I can't possibly understand every last metabolic interconnection in a living organism now (after 40 years of study) let alone detail it in a 200 word paragraph post on a website. I guess this level of understanding is really cool to a lot of us. I never really thought of trying to grow bacteria in a cobalt enriched environment.
 
Maybe Rick should have kept quiet? :sob:
Too late! :eek:

I'm a fixer. I can't stand to not have things work, and I can't stand to have things die when its preventable. One of the biggest guantlets thrown down (as they say) have been Roth's comments on how many cultivated seedlings and wild collected plants die in cultivation. If a species can survive in the wild with a fraction of the resources available in the GH there is no excuse to bury the amount of plant life we grow through in the hobby.
 
Post one is so far back! I'm so glad you brought it forwad lance! I have a new question! Do these kinds of topics get brought up in other forums and do they, if brought up, go on forever?
PS I never visit others. With this place I don't have the time!

I don't participate on other forums either. But I have read tons of archives from other forums. And the answer to your question is basically NO. Usually on forums after 4 or 5 pages people get in fights and the subject dies. That's too bad because usually there is a good amount of information being discussed and most of the time it ends without an answer. With this thread we have an example of discussion, mostly on topic or at least related, that is laying out ideas and concepts on how to improve plant growth. All of this info will be available for future reference by anyone in the world as long as SlipperTalk remains online.

We could have ended this thread with Ray's call to Bill Agro and he could have made a bag of fertilizer and sold it. But by continuing the discussion anyone who has an interest can learn and perhaps try some new ideas that are based on someone else's ideas.

I've been involved with plant nutrition for a looong time and have never heard it suggested that potassium may be the cause of plants rotting easily. With what has been laid out by Rick it makes sense so who cares how much time it takes to talk about it. I hope this thread goes on for years.
 
I'm a fixer. I can't stand to not have things work, and I can't stand to have things die when its preventable. One of the biggest guantlets thrown down (as they say) have been Roth's comments on how many cultivated seedlings and wild collected plants die in cultivation. If a species can survive in the wild with a fraction of the resources available in the GH there is no excuse to bury the amount of plant life we grow through in the hobby.

There is a picture of a wharehouse in the Philppines full of collected Phal. schilleriana taken in 1900. there must be many thousands of plants. Recently, several TONS of P. vietnamense was supposedly taken. Every year, millions of seedlings are deflasked and sold. Where are they all?, 99.9% are dead. Gowing orchids is a daily commitment not many people are willing to make. They buy on a whim and then fail to follow through with the most basic of requirements. You can't just deflask some paphs, pot them up and forget them. It takes daily observation. All the required information to keep them alive is out there, yet people being what they are just ignore it or more likely lose interest. I have seen it so many times. Even experienced people lose plants that they needn't. No there is no excuse but it has always happened and it will continue to happen.
 
There is a picture of a wharehouse in the Philppines full of collected Phal. schilleriana taken in 1900. there must be many thousands of plants. Recently, several TONS of P. vietnamense was supposedly taken. Every year, millions of seedlings are deflasked and sold. Where are they all?, 99.9% are dead. Gowing orchids is a daily commitment not many people are willing to make. They buy on a whim and then fail to follow through with the most basic of requirements. You can't just deflask some paphs, pot them up and forget them. It takes daily observation. All the required information to keep them alive is out there, yet people being what they are just ignore it or more likely lose interest. I have seen it so many times. Even experienced people lose plants that they needn't. No there is no excuse but it has always happened and it will continue to happen.
:(:sob:
 
"Usually on forums after 4 or 5 pages people get in fights and the subject dies. "
That's why I love this place. Despite the occasional dispute or 2, and some of the interpersonal grudges by some members carried over from the mists of time, this is overall the most civilized, polite, and friendly forum I have ever participated in...orchids, reefs, fishing, neighborhood blog, whatever the subject, this one beats them all in terms of classy communication.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gonewild View Post

I'm a fixer. I can't stand to not have things work, and I can't stand to have things die when its preventable. One of the biggest guantlets thrown down (as they say) have been Roth's comments on how many cultivated seedlings and wild collected plants die in cultivation. If a species can survive in the wild with a fraction of the resources available in the GH there is no excuse to bury the amount of plant life we grow through in the hobby.

There is a picture of a wharehouse in the Philppines full of collected Phal. schilleriana taken in 1900. there must be many thousands of plants. Recently, several TONS of P. vietnamense was supposedly taken. Every year, millions of seedlings are deflasked and sold. Where are they all?, 99.9% are dead. Gowing orchids is a daily commitment not many people are willing to make. They buy on a whim and then fail to follow through with the most basic of requirements. You can't just deflask some paphs, pot them up and forget them. It takes daily observation. All the required information to keep them alive is out there, yet people being what they are just ignore it or more likely lose interest. I have seen it so many times. Even experienced people lose plants that they needn't. No there is no excuse but it has always happened and it will continue to happen.

The lines you quoted are not my statements although I relate to the way Rick feels.
 
Huh? :confused: Who said that and what the? Did you say or did I say that he said that my reply to your reply to his post about my post about your reply to the other guy's po... I'm confused and now I don't know what my name is :p

:rollhappy:

On my screen post #265 shows inside the quote box "Originally Posted by gonewild View Post". That is something Rick said.

No problem I just wanted to point out that it was not a quote of my writing.
 
This cut and paste paraphrasing is getting quotes pretty messed up.

Gotta be careful when deleting sections that you don't mess the code up marking the beginning and ending of the post.

I know the closer it gets to midnight the sloppier I get!
 
OK. One 25# bag of powder is on order. (Aaron, the owner of Greencare, felt he could successfully make a powder form, without the deliquescence issue.)
 
Now we have to see how many people want to try it. The more people the cheaper its going to be for each person who wants to try it out. Make a new thread or stick with this one to get a tally?

Rick, How long did it take to see a difference in your plants?

Trying to figure how many pounds one would need to make a judgement call if they like it or not.

How about the PPM of N? I think I'm going to go with the PPM that I use now which is about 80 PPM N.
 
I'm not going to buy special containers - it will either be in my standard 2# screw-top jar (minimum portion), or I will heat seal it in a plastic bag for larger portions.
 
Also, "the more the cheaper" is incorrect.

This stuff will have a delivered cost of "$X per pound" I will add my packaging cost, and that sets the pricing for the trial - plus shipping, of course.
 
I've been following the thread and I'm really interested in this formula; I'll get a container if you all need someone else to round things out (though 2# is about two years' worth for me). Ray, is the cost going to be close to the MSU you already sell or higher because it's a prototype?

--Nat
 
There is a picture of a wharehouse in the Philppines full of collected Phal. schilleriana taken in 1900. there must be many thousands of plants. Recently, several TONS of P. vietnamense was supposedly taken.

Hi Stone,

Where did you hear about the P. vietnamense ? I know a few people in Vietnam that import vietnamense from Taiwan due to the plants being very rare in Vietnam. I have bought vietnamense in Australia very much cheaper than they can be bought in Vietnam.

Regards, Mick
 

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