K-lite fertilizer

[Ray]

Charles.

I think that we'll pretty much have to start with a single formula...

 

[cnycharles]

I vote for low hardness water formula (since that's what I have... )

 

[tocarmar]

I would like to know how this would work with terrestrial orchids ( Cyps.)??? I am trying to follow this but I'm not a chemist. I would like to try it but would need a small batch as I am down to under 50 plants in house, maybe split it with someone!!! I use rain water, my tap is very hard with a water softner (culligan system)..

 

[Rick]

I vote for low hardness water formula (since that's what I have... )

Low hardness or low alkalinity?

The alkalinity is what dictates the form of nitrogen to use.

However when MSU came up with the well water formula the knew that there is a general trend/correlation that natural high hardness waters also have a high alkalinity.

But hardness is based on the sum of Ca/Mg while alkalinity is based on bicarbonates, carbonates,and hydroxides.

You can make a solution of Ca/Mg salts (chlorides, sulfates, nitrates) that will have extreme hardness, but no alkalinity.

A solution of baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) in RO water has no hardness, but very high alkalinity.

 

[cnycharles]

low both, nothing in water, that makes it simple

 

[Ray]

Bill emailed me that you cannot mix mag sulfate with calcium nitrate in concentrated form without resulting in precipitation (as Stone forewarned). He also offered the 2-component angle - mix A & B to a dilute solution - but I don't think that would work for those of us with metering pumps needing a concentrate to start with.

 

[Rick]

Bill emailed me that you cannot mix mag sulfate with calcium nitrate in concentrated form without resulting in precipitation (as Stone forewarned). He also offered the 2-component angle - mix A & B to a dilute solution - but I don't think that would work for those of us with metering pumps needing a concentrate to start with.

Where does that leave us option wise.

Personally since I don't use concentrated superstocks, I wouldn't have precipitation problems.

So do we need to include a design criteria that we need to be able to use proportioners?

 

[Brabantia]

When the dry fertilizer becomes wet with absorbed moisture is there any degradation or change in the composition that would alter the nutrient values?

Would be great if someone could figure out how to package a fertilizer like this in "tea bags" that were individually sealed to keep out moisture. Then a person could just put one "tea bag" in a gallon of water, let steep then fertilize the plants with it.

Excellent idea but probably very expensive.

 

[Ray]

He thinks he can get a pretty strong version in a liquid solution - about 7%N - and favors that, as he expects the powders to be SO strongly deliquescent that it will be difficult to repackage for distribution.

As I'm the person who volunteered to do that, I believe I'll opt for a liquid, at least through our testing. Yeah, the shipping costs will be higher, but not all that much more so.

 

[keithrs]

Did he give you a final NPK? Also, How many gal. do you have to order?

 

[Roth]

Bill emailed me that you cannot mix mag sulfate with calcium nitrate in concentrated form without resulting in precipitation (as Stone forewarned). He also offered the 2-component angle - mix A & B to a dilute solution - but I don't think that would work for those of us with metering pumps needing a concentrate to start with.

Mmmh... you can mix calcium nitrate and magnesium sulfate, if you add to the blend urea phosphate. urea phosphate has a very low pH, and it allows for making a powdered version of a calcium and magnesium fertilizer. You dissolve it to make the concentrate for the dosatron or whatever, and correct he pH just before use ( but the solution will remain stable for a very short time, and for sure it has to be used at a lower than usual pH, something like 5.2 would be fine for the concentrate to be diluted). Unfortunately, I am pretty sure it has been patented by Scotts...

It can work as well with a 2 component sold to mix in equal parts before use with the metering pump. If the magnesium, calcium, etc... are stabilized with citric acid, and the component 2 is something like potassium bicarbonate, or ammonium bicarbonate to recorrect the pH, it would leave a few hours before the concentrate precipitates.

 

[Ray]

I agree on the citric acid. It's already in the MSU fertilizers.

 

[Ray]

Did he give you a final NPK? Also, How many gal. do you have to order?

The proposed powder formula was posted earlier, so you should think of the liquid as something near a 50-60% solution of it. Bill told me that as a powder, I could get as little as a single 25# bag, so I'm guessing at about 5 gallons minimum.

 

[Jim Toomey]

I'm still interested!

 

[Roth]

Then, when everything is nearly, ready, run the final formulations in MINTEQA, change the parameters from -2 degrees celsius to +35 degrees, and see how it holds. It is pretty accurate to predict precipitates... and you can know how to store it, when to ship it, and specific recommendations.

As an aside note, Jerry Wundergrow had heavy insoluble precipitate. I don't know what it was, but the final usable formulation was way different from his patent to my mind.

Thinking about Rick idea on the potassium, and the fact that potassium is relocated from dying old parts of the plants to newer parts ( like sodium, that' why sodium poisoning is very difficult to revert, the sodium moves to the newer parts...), It would explains too why plants that had a chlorosis in coconut are very slow to recover, and are 'allergic' for some years to coconut. I have seen yellow hangianum in coconut, they became green again, but shall any coco chips approach their roots again, they would become yellow within days.

One more observation, in flasks, with some media ( MS), I have seen the brown rot of paphs ( as described by people). Old growths become brown, die, the rhizome die, and the whole plant die up to the new growth, which dies itself of a kind of browning. Except that on seedlings in flask it cannot be a pathogen. Rick idea about the potassium may well be the answer... ( MS is very heavy on potassium).

 

[gonewild]

Then, when everything is nearly, ready, run the final formulations in MINTEQA, change the parameters from -2 degrees celsius to +35 degrees, and see how it holds. It is pretty accurate to predict precipitates... and you can know how to store it, when to ship it, and specific recommendations.

As an aside note, Jerry Wundergrow had heavy insoluble precipitate. I don't know what it was, but the final usable formulation was way different from his patent to my mind.

Thinking about Rick idea on the potassium, and the fact that potassium is relocated from dying old parts of the plants to newer parts ( like sodium, that' why sodium poisoning is very difficult to revert, the sodium moves to the newer parts...), It would explains too why plants that had a chlorosis in coconut are very slow to recover, and are 'allergic' for some years to coconut. I have seen yellow hangianum in coconut, they became green again, but shall any coco chips approach their roots again, they would become yellow within days.

One more observation, in flasks, with some media ( MS), I have seen the brown rot of paphs ( as described by people). Old growths become brown, die, the rhizome die, and the whole plant die up to the new growth, which dies itself of a kind of browning. Except that on seedlings in flask it cannot be a pathogen. Rick idea about the potassium may well be the answer... ( MS is very heavy on potassium).

Great observations.
The part about the coconut makes perfect sense. But just to clarify your point... The plants are not "allergic" to coconut but instead may be "allergic" to the potassium contained in coconut. It may prove out that coconut becomes a better media when little or no potassium is added with fertilizer. Coconut may prove to be a good source of potassium if added to media that is fertilized with low potassium fertilizer.

 

[eggshells]

Didn't Antec said that the cation exchange capacity of chc is weird? Well not weird but I don't know how to word it but the potassium and sodium strongly binds to the chc. Thats why initial treatment with calcium nitrate and magnesium sulfate is essential. That may also explain why many people are saying that they are having good results with chc initially but then it comes to the point that they decline. Maybe Sodium and potassium buildup because leaching doesn't really remove it.

Its a shame because chc as a medium is is good on holding moisture and retaining its shape. Rick's low K feeding regime might be the answer but I would not totally omit potassium because plant still needs it.

 

[keithrs]

Hydro guys that use chc or coco also flush there media with a flushing agent after every feeding that removes all salts in the media. If one going to use a flushing agent be careful on how strong you start with.


They also use "special" fertilizers because of the K exchange rate.

 

[gonewild]

Its a shame because chc as a medium is is good on holding moisture and retaining its shape. Rick's low K feeding regime might be the answer but I would not totally omit potassium because plant still needs it.

Yes the plant still needs potassium. But remember the chc already has potassium so there is no need to add it with the fertilizer. The plant can take potassium from the chc so it does not need or want it in the fertilizer.
So growing in chc may be improved with total ommission of pottassium in the fertilizer.

 

[gonewild]

Hydro guys that use chc or coco also flush there media with a flushing agent after every feeding that removes all salts in the media. If one going to use a flushing agent be careful on how strong you start with.

What is the flushing agent? Do you know a name for it or a link to the product?

They also use "special" fertilizers because of the K exchange rate.

[/QUOTE]

Maybe fertilizer without potassium?