insigne comparison

[Trithor]

Insigne sanderae (spots in the dorsal, with slightly yellower clour, more open form and a slightly smaller flower size)



Insigne sanderianum (no spots at all, bigger flower with a more green colouration)


A hybrid showing strong insigne influence. It looks like an insigne sanderae/sanderianum on steroids! (Lovely Land x Jolly Green Gem)


And the three together for size comparison

 

[fibre]

Wow, thanks! I love comparison threads!
Your sanderae is big!
Unfortunately my sanderae looks like your sanderianum without spots.

 

[eggshells]

Looks great.

 

[SlipperFan]

Nice comparison. Thanks. I have one that is labeled sanderae, but no spots, so it must be sanderianum.

 

[Ozpaph]

I think #2 is a hybrid, also.
Sanderianum and sanderae look almost identical except for the spots.

 

[emydura]

I think #2 is a hybrid, also.
Sanderianum and sanderae look almost identical except for the spots.

That's what I thought. If not for the spots, Sanderianum and Sanderae are all but impossible to tell apart.

 

[Trithor]

On the contrary, there is more of a difference between the two than just the spots. The differences have existed since the 1880's, and include the size, halo, spots, shape and colour. Added to that is the fact that all sanderae and sanderianums in culture today are no longer the same two clones that existed then, they have been selfed and sibling'd countless times in the last 130 years, and you can be sure that the selection has further accentuated the possible differences.
Having said that, obviously there is always a chance that it is a hybrid, but it is unlikely as it came into my collection in the 80's, back then South Africa was a pariah state and very little was coming into the country, but still obviously a possibility.
(A number of sanderianum clones have been awarded in the late 90's early 2000's which are significantly different from sanderae, no doubt the result of selective breeding, or not?)

 

[Ozpaph]

Here's a page from The Australian Orchid Review Dec 2012 by David Banks. For interest and comparison.

 

[Trithor]

Oz, thanks for the article copy. I am somewhat amused that other species have varieties listed as 'album' and so are permitted variation within the variety (or form), but insigne which perhaps has the widest geographical spread of all paphs, and perhaps the most variation within the species, is allowed a near album as sanderae and album/flavum as sanderianum and is allowed no variation in form, size or shape? A roths which we are all so fond of as referring to as a 'wild' roths, is so different from the new line bred clones, but yet we don't dispute the fact that the new line bred roths are roths at all! Yet roths come fom small isolated populations with small natural variation, while insigne come from vast geographical populations with significant variation and we believe that all the albanistic clones should fit in a very narrow and specific form, odd to say the least. The same could be said for godefroyae, in which wild clones bare only a passing resemblance to the modern clones. Then on the flip side we have complexes such as the cochlos, where we insist on splitting a group with a range which merges from one to the other, and yet if you examine the variation in insigne, we insist on calling the divergence a single species?
I am now busy with my third generation of line breeding in insigne (first generation where I am going to be doing the flasking myself, but two previous generations have been flasked for me by other local labs) the first generation admittedly was an absolute disaster as I managed to kill all except two seedlings, both of which have since demised as well, but the last batch I raised arround twenty regular coloured forms and a similar amount of albanistic clones. Not too much to choose between the clones, all being very similar/near identical to each other. My point is, if I am doing it, you can be sure that countless others have as well.
I have another clone which is about to flower(perhaps a week away) and from what I can remember it is 99% the same. As a hybrid, surely you would expect a bigger variation? (I am no expert, but that is my understanding)
:rollhappy:

 

[emydura]

I'm a bit confused about all these different varieties of insigne. Can you go into India and find wild populations of "Sanderae". I didn't think so. If not why are they given a variety status? Maybe my interpretation of variety is incorrect. I thought these were nothing but individual clones that occurred through chance mutations.

 

[Trithor]

That is my understanding as well, so the use of 'variety' in this context is plainly incorrect. However it is my understanding that more than just the two have been found, and selfings, crossing and subsequent sibling crosses have resulted in a whole range of them. A look at the award pictures shows a significant variation in size shape and form of these. We are left with an odd naming of the clones, where sanderae and sanderianum should apply to specific clones, but are now used generically to apply to with or without spots which is obviously incorrect. Perhaps 'album' or flavum would be more correct?

 

[emydura]

That is my understanding as well, so the use of 'variety' in this context is plainly incorrect. However it is my understanding that more than just the two have been found, and selfings, crossing and subsequent sibling crosses have resulted in a whole range of them. A look at the award pictures shows a significant variation in size shape and form of these. We are left with an odd naming of the clones, where sanderae and sanderianum should apply to specific clones, but are now used generically to apply to with or without spots which is obviously incorrect. Perhaps 'album' or flavum would be more correct?

I agree with you there Gary. Even if you self a Sanderae, the seedlings will be unique clones and hence may show different attributes to its parent. If you cross it with a different album clone then the differences will be even greater. As you say, they should be referred to as albums etc and Sanderae or Sanderianum should only be used for the original clones.

 

[NYEric]

Nice stuff. I need to hit the Lotto so I can buy more plants.

 

[Ozpaph]

I agree with you there Gary. Even if you self a Sanderae, the seedlings will be unique clones and hence may show different attributes to its parent. If you cross it with a different album clone then the differences will be even greater. As you say, they should be referred to as albums etc and Sanderae or Sanderianum should only be used for the original clones.

Probably why David Banks refers to them as 'albo-marginatum'.

 

[SlipperKing]

Looking good Gary. I must go along with you Gary for I know nothing about insigne

 

[Trithor]

I have been regretting this post for the last 4 days. (I have to be honest, I posted while I was out of the country, based on pics sent to me by my staff while I was away, I think my office is seriously regretting sending me the pics in the first place as I have been growling at everybody the whole day!),..... But I have confirmed the ID of the pics, and have another three siblings coming into bloom over the next few days, all from memory are very similar to each other (quite unusual for a hybrid, but expected for line breeding. I think there is a clone 'silver cloud' or something similar in the States which I think is from the same breeding. (You guys in the USA might have more info, a comparative picture might be interesting if you can trace one?)

 

[Ozpaph]

Gary, what are you regretting? Im enjoying the discussion and views expressed. Discussion about interesting topics is how we all learn. I hope you're not feeling 'set upon'. Thank-you for posting your photos and impressions.

 

[emydura]

Gary, are you saying the 2nd and 3rd photos are hybrids from the same cross?

 

[Trithor]

Gary, what are you regretting? Im enjoying the discussion and views expressed. Discussion about interesting topics is how we all learn. I hope you're not feeling 'set upon'. Thank-you for posting your photos and impressions.

No not at all, I should have posted a smiley after my comment (I forget to sometimes, I forget that people cannot see if I am smiling when I post a comment)

Gary, are you saying the 2nd and 3rd photos are hybrids from the same cross?

No David, sorry I am muddying the waters a bit. The third is a hybrid. The second is a cross of two sanderianum clones. It was from a flask imported from the States (I can't remember who from, perhaps Orchids Limited, or it could have come from Paphanatics) I have a total of 5 surviving seedlings from that flask, and a few from a flask (from my own cross, the flasking was done by a local lab prior to me starting my own flasking)
I have around 26 clones of insigne sanderae/sanderianum, but will need to sort them all out, some are growing in my main greenhouse, but others are growing out in the garden, and in the other two greenhouses.
This year I currently have three sanderae clones in bloom (they seem to be about a month earlier than sanderianum) and 4 sanderianum clones in various stages of opening. I have made the following crosses this season
sanderae 'a' x sanderae 'b'
sanderae 'b' x sanderianum '1'
sanderianum '1' x sanderianum '4'
A lot of insigne, I know, but they make great pot plants and are easier to grow than most other paphs and quick to mature.

 

[Ozpaph]

Just difficult to flower in the subtropics................darn!