jonesl8102
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I live in Ft. Lauderdale and use Orthene monthly on my orchids. I've heard that orchids can become tolerant after a while. Should I alternate with another product? Does Physan 20 provide the same protection?
I live in Ft. Lauderdale and treat all my orchids monthly with orthene. Seems to work but I've heard that orchids can become tolerant... true?
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mrhappyrotter
Grand Chupacabra
Orthene is used to control critters. Physan 20 is used to control diseases. So, they don't provide the same protection. What are you trying to protect against? Bugs? Pathogens? All of the above?
Regardless of what you're trying to control with a regular preventative treatment regimen, I've always read/heard that it is generally best to rotate products with different active ingredients or mode of action, at least periodically. So, I think the answer to your question about using an alternative product is likely to be "yes".
It's not so much the orchids becoming tolerant, it's the pests and pathogens that you need to worry about becoming resistant. In addition, most pesticides have limitations as to which species they work against or are most effective against, so rotating in another product from time to time can help broaden the range of control and shore up any gaps.
In the case of Orthene (acephate which is an organophosphate), you might consider rotating with a pyrethroid based insecticide (there are many) or if you're an indoor/greenhouse grower without mite issues, then a product with imidacloprid (a neonicotinoid) could be an option.
Regardless of what you're trying to control with a regular preventative treatment regimen, I've always read/heard that it is generally best to rotate products with different active ingredients or mode of action, at least periodically. So, I think the answer to your question about using an alternative product is likely to be "yes".
It's not so much the orchids becoming tolerant, it's the pests and pathogens that you need to worry about becoming resistant. In addition, most pesticides have limitations as to which species they work against or are most effective against, so rotating in another product from time to time can help broaden the range of control and shore up any gaps.
In the case of Orthene (acephate which is an organophosphate), you might consider rotating with a pyrethroid based insecticide (there are many) or if you're an indoor/greenhouse grower without mite issues, then a product with imidacloprid (a neonicotinoid) could be an option.
Hi and welcome to the forum. By using the same product over and over your are risking developing resistance in the pest you are try to kill.
Can you tell us why you are treating your orchids monthly with Orthene? Is there a pest you are trying to control? How large is your collection? Physan 20 is type of fungicide and does not treat pest, if that is what you are looking to do.
More information about the problem you are trying to solve would help to inform responses. Personally, monthly treatment with any pesticide seems to be overkill. Unless you are trying to control an outbreak/infestation, you probably don't need monthly pest treatments. I believe that Orthene instructions recommend timing between applications and address concerns about resistance if used too frequently.
Can you tell us why you are treating your orchids monthly with Orthene? Is there a pest you are trying to control? How large is your collection? Physan 20 is type of fungicide and does not treat pest, if that is what you are looking to do.
More information about the problem you are trying to solve would help to inform responses. Personally, monthly treatment with any pesticide seems to be overkill. Unless you are trying to control an outbreak/infestation, you probably don't need monthly pest treatments. I believe that Orthene instructions recommend timing between applications and address concerns about resistance if used too frequently.
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There is nothing more that I can say! The 2 answers you got were just wonderful.
An excellent source of information is available on the Saint Augustine Orchid Society website. Look for pests and diseases section and further of application/rotation of chemicals.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...usg=AOvVaw3asTH9FTofaaP75pokGuaj&opi=89978449
some fundamentals are
know which pest or disease
life cycle of the pest to determine application frequency
mode of action of product
most definitely rotate products
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...usg=AOvVaw3asTH9FTofaaP75pokGuaj&opi=89978449
some fundamentals are
know which pest or disease
life cycle of the pest to determine application frequency
mode of action of product
most definitely rotate products
In my opinion, you should never do preventive treatments with pesticides.
user 149187
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Orthene's pretty aggressive treatment.
Couldn't pay me to go near that junk..."Acephate (Orthene) can affect you when inhaled and quickly enters the body by passing through the skin; exposure to Acephate (Orthene) can cause rapid, severe Organophosphate poisoning; high or repeated exposure may damage the nerves, causing weakness, "pins and needles", and poor coordination in the arms and legs; repeated exposure may cause personality changes, such as depression, anxiety or irritability." - Source
Couldn't pay me to go near that junk..."Acephate (Orthene) can affect you when inhaled and quickly enters the body by passing through the skin; exposure to Acephate (Orthene) can cause rapid, severe Organophosphate poisoning; high or repeated exposure may damage the nerves, causing weakness, "pins and needles", and poor coordination in the arms and legs; repeated exposure may cause personality changes, such as depression, anxiety or irritability." - Source
There is no need to be fearful of most chemicals, especially if you're sensible and knowledgeable about protective measures.
Yes, acephate is an organophosphate, but it is actually less toxic than a lot of pesticides.
Yes, acephate is an organophosphate, but it is actually less toxic than a lot of pesticides.
user 149187
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a complete reading of the data sheets and using appropriate PPE are absolute necessities. Being appreciative and respectful of the fact that these are poisons goes a long in reducing the risk to humans and beneficial insects.
Note that I said reduce not eliminate.
Note that I said reduce not eliminate.
OK. Let's take a step back for a moment.
As someone who has worked with all sorts of radioisotopes and hazardous chemicals from my college days to retirement (and as a grower), I am certainly not automatically against chemicals, but I agree that monthly application of a pesticide - any pesticide - is not the greatest idea in the world.
As a skeptic, I will point out that just because governments do- or don't outlaw stuff is not really an argument that addresses the facts. For example, anhydrous ammonia is extremely toxic and a danger to the environment, yet it is used widely in Canada - with standards of practice, just like those for pesticides - spilled into the ground for use a fertilizer.
As a moderator, I will ask that folks not post inflammatory information that is intended to scare people.
As someone who has worked with all sorts of radioisotopes and hazardous chemicals from my college days to retirement (and as a grower), I am certainly not automatically against chemicals, but I agree that monthly application of a pesticide - any pesticide - is not the greatest idea in the world.
As a skeptic, I will point out that just because governments do- or don't outlaw stuff is not really an argument that addresses the facts. For example, anhydrous ammonia is extremely toxic and a danger to the environment, yet it is used widely in Canada - with standards of practice, just like those for pesticides - spilled into the ground for use a fertilizer.
As a moderator, I will ask that folks not post inflammatory information that is intended to scare people.
user 149187
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Dustin, I have no issue with the facts about organophosphates. Lumping all of them into that description without regard to specifics of the product is an inflammatory spreading of misinformation, and that should not be happening in an information-sharing environment.
Quoting sources of information taken out of context does not constitute “proof”. I seem to recall you and I have had an issue over that in your comments about me in the past, so don’t be taking snide shots.
Acephate, it turns out, has a low acute oral toxicity - (I was surprised to learn that it’s LD50 is higher than that of caffeine) - and very low inhalation and dermal contact toxicity and primary skin irritation levels. Contact with the eyes is a whole different ballgame, but is still listed as only a moderate level. That info comes from the national pesticide center.
Quoting sources of information taken out of context does not constitute “proof”. I seem to recall you and I have had an issue over that in your comments about me in the past, so don’t be taking snide shots.
Acephate, it turns out, has a low acute oral toxicity - (I was surprised to learn that it’s LD50 is higher than that of caffeine) - and very low inhalation and dermal contact toxicity and primary skin irritation levels. Contact with the eyes is a whole different ballgame, but is still listed as only a moderate level. That info comes from the national pesticide center.
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Okay, I will jump in briefly here. Any pesticide scares the heck out of me! I have not used one since 1981, as my wife and I decided to start a family. With all of these ideas kicking around all over the Orchid World 
, they’re bad, they really won’t hurt you, follow the directions, etc. etc. I do not trust any of it, none!!!
I use Neem Oil, alcohol or as a last measure, insecticidal soap. If I can not get problems under control using those things, then so be it. My belief is that not a single orchid, or any orchid collection is more important then my health and my well being.
Now I understand, some people here use them in their businesses or collections, but not me. If it is a natural, nature made product, well maybe I would consider it BUT if a company or a lab made it, I AINT USING IT!!
Every morning waking up, I realize I am #1, not any orchid is better then me.
, they’re bad, they really won’t hurt you, follow the directions, etc. etc. I do not trust any of it, none!!!I use Neem Oil, alcohol or as a last measure, insecticidal soap. If I can not get problems under control using those things, then so be it. My belief is that not a single orchid, or any orchid collection is more important then my health and my well being.
Now I understand, some people here use them in their businesses or collections, but not me. If it is a natural, nature made product, well maybe I would consider it BUT if a company or a lab made it, I AINT USING IT!!
Every morning waking up, I realize I am #1, not any orchid is better then me.
Anything toxic follow instructions and PPE
jonesl8102
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jonesl8102
Member
jonesl8102
Member
I was advised by 3 local growers to use Orthene monthly. Thrips! I know that protective gear is necessary.
I am glad you are outfitted in protective gear, especially if the application is in an enclosed space like a greenhouse. My husband is an industrial hygienist with a Ph.D. is Public Health. PPE and safety data sheets are rallying cries around my collection, especially when he see a bottle out... no matter the bottle sometimes.
To your question about resistance, I still have concerns about monthly application for Orthene. Setting aside the "is monthly necessary" question, you are risking build a population of thrips that are resistant to Orthene by using it over and over again. As others have commented, you are better suited by alternating pesticides rated for thrip control. You are looking for something with a difference mode of action (IRAC MoA Group) than Orthene which is group 1. The recommendation that I have heard is no more than 2-3 consecutive applications of a pesticide or miticide with the same MoA. Then you switch to another MoA.
Things like insecticidal soaps and horticultural oils count as a change of MoA, and do not cause an issues with developing resistance in pest. It is hard to develop a resistance from being dissolved or smothered. You may also want to research insect growth regulators like Enstar AQ.
I know this resource was shared earlier in this thread but in case it is buried in the comments: St. Augustine Orchid Society Culture is a really great resource for orchid culture questions.
The AOS has some great webinars regarding pest management and creating a management program. However they are behind the Members Only firewall. So if you are a member, I would recommend viewing them to give you some ideas.
To your question about resistance, I still have concerns about monthly application for Orthene. Setting aside the "is monthly necessary" question, you are risking build a population of thrips that are resistant to Orthene by using it over and over again. As others have commented, you are better suited by alternating pesticides rated for thrip control. You are looking for something with a difference mode of action (IRAC MoA Group) than Orthene which is group 1. The recommendation that I have heard is no more than 2-3 consecutive applications of a pesticide or miticide with the same MoA. Then you switch to another MoA.
Things like insecticidal soaps and horticultural oils count as a change of MoA, and do not cause an issues with developing resistance in pest. It is hard to develop a resistance from being dissolved or smothered. You may also want to research insect growth regulators like Enstar AQ.
I know this resource was shared earlier in this thread but in case it is buried in the comments: St. Augustine Orchid Society Culture is a really great resource for orchid culture questions.
The AOS has some great webinars regarding pest management and creating a management program. However they are behind the Members Only firewall. So if you are a member, I would recommend viewing them to give you some ideas.
The potential problem with using any toxin routinely and regularly is the likelihood of developing strains of insects that are tolerant of it.
Statistically, there is a small percentage of critters fully- or partially immune to any toxin. If they have an opportunity to breed with others having similar resistances, they can pass that resistance onto their offspring, and with repeated "fine tuning", if you will, we ultimately end up with strains that are completely unaffected by that particular toxin.
Acephate may be systemic/translaminar, but like most insecticides, it only kills adult insects, so any that are not thoroughly wetted and killed, plus any eggs or immature insects that later mature, have the opportunity to continue to reproduce.
As has been stated, rotating between products having a different mode of action (MOA) goes a long way to slowing that, if not preventing it altogether.
This Pesticide Selection Guide and Chemical Class Chart can be quite helpful in that.
